Shynjanda túratyn qazaqtardyng jergilikti biylik tarapynan qatty qysymgha úshyrap, zorlyq-zombylyq pen jappay zansyzdyqtan japa shegip jatqany qaymana qazaqtyng qabyrghasyna batyp otyr. Bayyrghy mekeninde kóshpeli tirligin keshetin qandastarymyzdyng ahualy songhy bir-eki jylda nege nasharlap ketti? Shiyelenisken mәseleni sheshuding qanday joldary bar? Sayasattanushy Rasul Júmalymen aradaghy ashyq súhbatymyz osy taqyrypta órbidi.

-Rasul myrza, mәselening mәnisine terendep ýnilip kóreyikshi. Shynjanda qysymgha úshyraghan qazaqtardyng hal-ahualy jóninde bizding qolymyzda naqty, shynayy derekter bar ma?

- Osydan 1-1,5 ay búryn osy mәsele boyynsha Qytaydan kelgen bizding azamattarymyz, qogham belsendileri baspasóz mәslihatyn ótkizgeni mәlim. Ol jiyngha búl mәselening basy-qasynda jýrgen, Shynjanda týrli qysymgha úshyraghan, týrmege qamalghan azamattardyng tuystary (balalary, ini-qaryndastary, apalary) kelip qatysty. Olardyng qolynda japa shekken jandardyng tizimi  (búl tolyq tizim emes) boldy. Men kórgen tizimde 30-40 adamnyng aty-jóni jazylghan. Sol jerde kimning qanday aiyppen bas bostandyghynan airylghany, qanday merzimge sottalghany jóninde aqparat taratyldy. Mәslihatqa qatysqandar óz kózimen kórgen óz tuystarynyng auyr halin aitty. Meninshe, búl óte naqty, shynayy derek bolyp tabylady.

Sol azamattardyng aituy boyynsha, Shynjandaghy jaghday songhy bir-eki jylda shynymen ushyghyp ketken. Qazaq, qyrghyz, úighyrgha qoqan-loqy jasau, zansyz әreketterge baru beleng alghan. Mysaly, tizimdegi 30-40 adamnyng ishinde 5, 10, 15 jylgha bas bostandyghynan airylghandar bar. Ol jaqta qamalghan qazaqtargha: «Qazaqstangha baryp keldi», «Týrkiyagha baryp keldi», «Balalaryn Qazaqstangha oqugha jiberipti», «Meshit saldyrypty» degen aiyptar taghyluda. Osynday aiyptarmen 10-12 jylgha týrmege jabylghandar bar. Búghan qosa, mening estuimshe, «Qúran-Kәrimnin» núsqalaryn tartyp jatqan kórinedi. Shynjanda 2 mln-gha juyq qandasymyz túrady. Shynjannyng biyligi eki jaqtaghy (Qytay men Qazaqstandaghy) tuystardy bólip-jarugha kýsh salyp otyr. Mәselen, Qazaqstanda balalary joghary oqu oryndarynda bilim alyp jýrgen ata-analardyng tólqújatyn tartyp alghan. Olar Qazaqstangha kele almaydy. Sonday-aq, Qazaqstannyng azamattyghyn alghan qandastarymyzgha Qytaygha barugha viza bermeydi. Sonyng kesirinen Qytaydaghy tuystarynyng toyyna, janazasyna bara almay púshayman bolyp jýrgender kóp. Shyndyghyn aitsaq, songhy bir-eki jyldyng ishinde jappay qytaylandyru mәselesi qatty ushyghyp túr. ShÚAR-da 1,5 myngha juyq qazaq (dúrysy aralas mektepter) mektepteri bar. Sol mektepterdegi pәnderding barlyghy qytaysha auystyryluda. Baspasóz mәslihatynda jogharyda aitylghan mәseleler boyynsha elimizding Syrtqy ister ministrligine, Preziydentke ashyq hattar joldanatyny aityldy. Mening biluimshe, qazirgi kezde diplomatiyalyq arnalar boyynsha belgili bir júmystar jýrgizilude.

-Qazaqta «Jaqyn kórshing alystaghy aghayynnan artyq» degen maqal bar. Songhy 25 jylda Qazaqstan men Qytay arasyndaghy tatu kórshilik jәne dostyq qarym-qatynastar joghary dengeyge kóterildi. Qazir eki el arasyndaghy jan-jaqty strategiyalyq әriptestik turaly kelisim-shart ta kýshinde. Soghan sәikes, resmy Beyjing de, resmy Astana da kórshiler arasyndaghy janjaldyng otyn ýrleuge mýddelilik tanytyp otyrghan joq. Endeshe, Shynjandaghy mәseleni qolda bar uaghdalastyqtardyng kómegimen sheshuge bola ma?

-Meninshe bolady. Birinshiden, qolda bar derekterge sýienetin bolsaq, osynday qysymdy, asyra silteushilikti qoldanyp otyrghan Shynjannyng qazirgi jana gubernatory (bizdinshe әkim). Ol kezinde Tiybette gubernator bolghan. Óte qatqyl, jauyz adam. Ákimshil kadr bolyp tabylady. Búl jayynda Beyjing beyhabar boluy da yqtimal. Sondyqtan, eng basty mәsele – Shynjandaghy bassyzdyqty ortalyq Beyjinge jetkizu. Ekinshiden, 2 mln. qandasymyz – Qytay azamattary. Olardyng qúqyghynyng búzyluy Qytaydyng ishki mәselesi. Biraq biz búghan bey-jay qaray almaymyz. Qolymyzda bar qújattar osy mәseleni sheshuge jetkilikti dep oilaymyn. Búghan qosa, Shynjandaghy qatqyl sharalar Qytaydyng ishki zandaryna da qayshy. Sebebi, Qytaydyng últtyq ólkelerge qatysty arnayy zany bar. Sol zanda eshqanday alalaugha jol bermeu, әdil sot jýrgizu jәne birtalay kepildikter kórsetilgen. Óziniz aitqanday, songhy 25 jylda eki el arasyndaghy baylanystar óte izgi, ózara tiyimdi, dostyq rәuishte damyp keledi. Qay salany alsaq ta (ekonomika, sayasat, investisiya, múnaygaz, sauda-sattyq jәne t.b) osy ýrdis bayqalady. Demek, dәl osynday iygi baylanystar bola túra, Qytaydyng ózi de qazaqtyng mәselesin arandatugha mýddeli emes. Sondyqtan, qoldaghy bar uaghdalastyqtargha, aradaghy kelisim-sharttargha sýiene otyryp, búl mәseleni eki memleketting mýddesine say, dostyq ahualmen sheshuge bolady dep sanaymyn. Qytay ong kózben qaraytynyna senim bar. Sebebi, týptep kelgende Shynjandaghy jaghday Qytaydyng bedeline, Qazaqstannyng ishindegi Qytaygha degen kózqarasqa jaqsy әserin tiygizbeytini anyq. Ayta ketelik, búl jerde Qytaydyng ishki zandary, qazaq-qytay kelisimderi ghana emes, halyqaralyq talaptar da, sonyng ishinde BÚÚ-nyng adam qúqyqtayr jónindegi konvensiyalary da búzylyp otyr. Eger de mәsele resmy Beyjing dengeyinde sheshilmeytin bolsa, halyqaralyq úiymdargha, sonyng ishinde Halyqaralyq sotqa shaghymdanugha mýmkindik mol.

-Ángimemizding basynda Shynjandaghy qazaqtardyng mәdeny assimilyasiyagha úshyrap jatqany jóninde aittyq. Mysaly, qytay biyligi әdep-ghúryp, salt-dәstýrin berik ústanghan qazaqtyng jastaryn ishki Qytaygha kýshtep kóshirude. Osy jerde ózining bayyrghy mekeninde ómir sýretin irredenta (etnos emes) qazaqtargha qanday da bir ruhany kómek kórsete alamyz ba?

-Áriyne. Tәuelsiz memleket retinde әr qazaqqa kómek beru – paryzymyz. Meninshe, biz qolymyzda bar mýmkindikterdi paydalana almay otyrmyz. Qanday kómek bere alamyz? Sol jaqtaghy aralas mektepterdi qazaqsha oqulyqtarmen, oqu baghdarlamasymen qamtamasyz etuge bolady. Baspasóz arqyly mәdeni, ruhany baylanystardy nyghayta alamyz. Shynjang qazaqtarynyng balalary Qazaqstandaghy joghary oqu oryndaryna týsu ýshin olargha beriletin oqu granttaryn kóbeyteyik. Qazaq kóshine qarqyn bereyik. Qazaqstangha kóshemin degen, tólqújatyn alamyn degen qazaqtargha qolayly jaghday tughyzugha bolady. Odan keyin Qazaqstangha Qytaydan, Mongholiyadan qonys audarghan qandastarymyzdy materialdyq qoldau mәselesi túr. Júmysqa túratyn kezde orys tilin bilmeui kóp kedergi keltiredi. Mәselen, sol qandastardy qújattandyruda Reseyding tәjiriybesinen ýireneyik. Ukrainadaghy orys tildiler Reseyge kóshkende 3-aq kýnning ishinde tólqújatyn qolyna ústatty. Búl – sheshuge bolatyn, bizding qolymyzdan keletin sharua.

-Rasul myrza, ashyq oi-pikirinizben bólisip, saliqaly súhbat bergeniniz ýshin alghys aitamyn.

Súhbattasqan Tólen Tileubay

Astana

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