- Siz «Mәngilik sәulede» shyghar­mashylyq adamyn ýsh topqa bóldiniz: kemtalanttar, talanttar, úly talant­tar. Úly talant degeninizdi qúbylys, tipti geniy maghynasynda týsinuge bolatyn shyghar. Osy úly talant ta­bighatyndaghy tәkapparlyq pen qa­tygez­dik, onyng saldary: onyng taghdyryndaghy azap pen qorlanu shy­­­ghar­­­ma­shylyghynda qanshalyqty kórinis tabady, tabuy kerek?
- Toghyzynshy synypta oqyp jýrgenimde bir kýni mening qolyma Servantesting «Don Kihoty» týsti. Romandaghy birinen-biri asyp týsetin Don Kihot pen onyng kómekshisi San­cho Pansanyng basynan keshken oqiy­ghalardyng qyzyqtyrghany sonsha­ma, kirpishting qalyndyghynday kitap­ty bir demde, qalay tez oqyp tasta­ghanymdy da bayqamay qaldym. «Don Kihotty» oqyp shyqqan song balalyq qiyalym búl romandy әdemi ómir sýr­gen, taghdyrdan esh teperish kórmegen adam jazghan shyghar degen oidyng múnaryna batyrdy. Keyin eseye kele Servantesting ómirimen tanysqanym­da, tútqyngha da týsip, bir qolynan aiyrylsa da moyymay, zyndanda otyryp ta ghajayyp shygharmasyn jaz­ghan úly jazushynyng qaysar ru­hy­nyng aldynda basymdy iydim.

- Siz «Mәngilik sәulede» shyghar­mashylyq adamyn ýsh topqa bóldiniz: kemtalanttar, talanttar, úly talant­tar. Úly talant degeninizdi qúbylys, tipti geniy maghynasynda týsinuge bolatyn shyghar. Osy úly talant ta­bighatyndaghy tәkapparlyq pen qa­tygez­dik, onyng saldary: onyng taghdyryndaghy azap pen qorlanu shy­­­ghar­­­ma­shylyghynda qanshalyqty kórinis tabady, tabuy kerek?
- Toghyzynshy synypta oqyp jýrgenimde bir kýni mening qolyma Servantesting «Don Kihoty» týsti. Romandaghy birinen-biri asyp týsetin Don Kihot pen onyng kómekshisi San­cho Pansanyng basynan keshken oqiy­ghalardyng qyzyqtyrghany sonsha­ma, kirpishting qalyndyghynday kitap­ty bir demde, qalay tez oqyp tasta­ghanymdy da bayqamay qaldym. «Don Kihotty» oqyp shyqqan song balalyq qiyalym búl romandy әdemi ómir sýr­gen, taghdyrdan esh teperish kórmegen adam jazghan shyghar degen oidyng múnaryna batyrdy. Keyin eseye kele Servantesting ómirimen tanysqanym­da, tútqyngha da týsip, bir qolynan aiyrylsa da moyymay, zyndanda otyryp ta ghajayyp shygharmasyn jaz­ghan úly jazushynyng qaysar ru­hy­nyng aldynda basymdy iydim.
Servantesting Don Kihoty sol uaqyttaghy әdebiyettegi qaptap ketken rysarlyq romandargha satira retinde jazylghan tuyndy bolatyn. Biraq birte-birte búl roman avtordyng yq­tiyarynsyz adam tabighatyn tereng zer­delegen psihologiyalyq shyghar­magha ainalyp shygha keldi. Múny aityp otyrghan sebebim, talant ta­bighatyndaghy tәkapparlyq Servan­tes­ting shygharmashylyq tabighatyna tәn bolghanymen, kedeyshilikting de, taghdyrdyng da tauqymetin kóp tart­qan úly jazushy jeke basyndaghy azapty, belshesinen keshken qasiretti jyrlaudy qosh kórmedi.
Kerisinshe, materialdyq múq­tajdyqqa asa zәru bolmaghan Tolstoy men Abaydyng úly tuyndylaryn oqy otyryp, olardyng qúsalyqqa shal­dyq­qan ómirindegi býkil azap pen qor­lanudy sharaynadan kórgendey әser alasyn.
Tolstoy tipti zayyrly qoghamnyng ortasynda jýrgennen qinaldy; dý­niyening týkpir-týkpirinen aghylyp jat­qan zeriktiretin qonaqtardan; su­qany sýimeytin amerikalyqtar men kórseqyzarlardyng kelip-ketuinen; mәjbýrlikten otbasynda alyp jýru­ge tura kelgen saltanatty ómirden de azap shekti. Oghan barghandardyng ai­tuyna qaraghanda, ol tym júpyny sәn-saltanatty qanaghat tútqan, ýiin­de arzanqol jihaz, temir kereuet, qa­byrghalary jalanash qúittay ból­mesinde qarapayym oryndyqtary ghana bolghan. Alayda múnday jayly­lyqtyng ózi ony qamyqtyryp - ýnemi ar-azabyn tartqyzdy. «Merkur de Fransta» jaryq kórgen bir әngime­sinde ol jany kýiip, ýiining sәn-sal­tanatyn jan-jaghyndaghy qayyrshy­lyqpen salystyrady.
Biz ylghy da dýniyege keletin úly aqyndardyng qasiretke belshesinen batyp, azap shegip, jaryq dýniyeden jaqsylyq kóre almay ótuining sebebin ómirding zandylyghymen týsindiruge tyrysamyz. Shyndyghynda múnyng basqa da sebepteri bar.
Úly aqyndardyng myna biz siyaq­ty qarapayym pendelerden bir ýlken aiyrmashylyghy tabighat ta, tirshilik te olardan tys jerde emes, ishinde ómir sýredi. Tabighattyng dýley dauyl­dary olardyng keudesinde soghyp, ýskirik ayazdary jýregin tondyryp, aptap ystyqtary janyn kýidirip jatady. Halyqtyng qabyrghasyna bat­qan әdiletsizdikter, qayghy-qa­siret­ter, olardyng jýregin jaralay­dy. Sondyqtan da úly talanttyng tagh­dyryndaghy azapty halyqtyng basyndaghy qayghy-qasiretten bólip qaraugha bolmaydy. Halyq baqytty bolmaghan jerde, aqyn da baqytty bola almaydy. Halyqtyng ruhyna ki­sen salynsa, aqynnyng jany azat­tyqty ansap qinalady.
- Ádebiyette «Aryndy jasynnan saqta!» prinsiypi bar. Ardy saqtau neden bastalady? Jalpy, Ar degenimiz qazirgi qoghamnyng gumanizmi jәne moralimen qanshalyqty sәikesedi?
- Keshegi nemese býgingi qogham degen úghymdardy óz basym qabylday almaymyn. HH ghasyr­dyng basyndaghy qogham býgingiden anaghúrlym súmpayy, әri zymiyan edi. Biraq últymyzdyng birtuar perzent­teri Ahmet, Mirja­qyp, Álihan, Magh­jandar ar-úyatyn satqannyng ornyna, atylyp ketkendi qosh kórdi emes pe?! Nege biz solardan ýlgi aludyng ornyna, bәrin qoghamgha jauyp, ar-úyatymyzdyng aldynda ótirik aqtalghymyz keledi? Nege biz ar-úyatyn satqan jazushy­nyng úrlyq jasaghan, әiel zorlaghan, tipti adam óltirgen qylmyskerden de auyr kýnәgha batatynyn týsin­bey­miz.
Dýniyede sóz qylmysynyng qo­ghamgha tiygizetin zardaby soghystan da jaman. Mine, sondyqtan ar-úyatyn satqan jazushyny «men múnday әreketke bala-shaghamnyng qamy ýshin bardym» degen sózderi de aqtap ala almaydy. Múnday ólshemmen baukes­pe úryny da, adam óltirgen qylmys­kerdi de moralidyq túrghydan aqtap alugha bolady. Sebebi olardyng kóbisi de otbasyna nәpaqa tauyp beru ýshin auyr qylmysqa barady emes pe?
Sóz qylmysy arqyly biz miyl­lion­daghan adamdardy qoghamnan jiyirkendirip, jýrekterindegi izgilik­ting shyraghyn sóndiremiz, jas úrpaqty adastyryp, keleshekke qiyanat ja­say­myz. Eger biz shyn maghynasyndaghy órkeniyetke qol jetkizgen memleket­ter siyaqty ruhany katarsistin, yaghny tazarudyng sýzgisinen ótkimiz kelse, elimizdegi resmy biylik- jaghym­paz­danyp, ózderin ótirik maqtaghan ziya­lylardy qolpashtaghanyn dogharyp, ar-úyattyng sózin sóilep, ashy shyn­dyqty aitqan azamattargha ha­lyq jauy siyaqty qaraytyn kózqara­synan aiyryluy qajet. Biyliktegiler eger әdebiyet ruhyn joghaltsa- últ­tyng óletinin týsinui kerek.
Bir diny kitaptan sóz qylmysyn jasaghan adamnyng tozaqtyng eng auyr qabatyna baratyny turaly oqygha­nym bar. Mine, sondyqtan qolyna qalam ústaghan kez kelgen músylman balasy, eng bolmaghanda o dýniyede tozaqtyng otyna kýiip ketpeui ýshin, ózgeler týgil ózi de senbeytin kezekti ótirigin jazarynyng aldynda «men osy ótirikti aitu arqyly Qúdaydyng aldynda kýnәgha batyp jatqan joq­pyn ba?» degendi myqtap bir oilanyp alsa artyq bolmas edi.
- Basqasha aitqanda, poeziya- әrbir poetikalyq dәuirding kórgen týsi, al proza- óni sekildi kórinedi. Kórkem syn bolsa- óng men týsting arasyndaghy beymaza hali. Eger osylay aita alsaq, әdeby synnyng bәri ýnemi shynshyl bola ma?
- Aqiqatynda óner - halyqtyng jany. Ádebiyet halyqtyng janyn týsinuding kilti. Biz Botticheliydin, Rafaelidin, Rubenstin, Velaskestin, Rembrandttyn, Delakruanyn, Ayva­zovskiy­din, Pissaronyn, Manenin, Vasnesovtyn, Poli Gogennin, Viyn­sent van Gogtyn... nemese ózimizding Qasteevting kartinalaryn tamashala­ghanymyzda halyqtyng janyn kórgen­dey bolamyz. Mosart, Bethoven, Bah, Vagner, Brams, Shubert, Gendeli, Chay­kovskiy, Verdi, Gaydn, Shuman, Shopen, List, Mendelison, Tәt­timbet pen Qúrmanghazynyng ghajayyp muzykasyn tyndaghanymyzda halyq­tyng janyn estigendey әser alamyz. Al Gomer, Vergiliy, Gorasiy, orta ghasyrdaghy Firdousi, Omar Hayyam, Servantes, Shekspiyr....әdebiyetting al­tyn dәuirindegi Voliter, Gete, Berns, Bayron, Pushkiyn, Balizak, Mahambet pen Abaydy, HH ghasyrdaghy Buniyn, Remark, Heminguey, Folik­ner, Ahmatova, Akutagava, Maghjan men Múqandy (Áuezov) oqyghany­myzda halyqtyng janyn týsingendey bolamyz.
Álemdik әdebiyetting ýderisin jaqsy bilmegendikten, dúrysy tereng týsinbegendikten poeziya men pro­za­ny әdebiyetting tórine shygharyp, syndy ógey shesheden tughan baladay shettetkimiz kelip túratyn jaman әdetten aryla almay kelemiz. Aqiqa­tynda naghyz synshy jazushydan da, aqynnan da biyiktep ketip, shyghar­malaryndaghy olardyng ózderi de bayqamaghan qúndylyqtardy ashady. Synshygha qiyn. Synshynyng aqyn nemese jazushy siyaqty sezimge be­rilu­ge qaqysy joq. Onyng sózin júrt aqiqat dep qabyldaydy. Shyghar­ma­daghy kórgen kemshiligin aitu ýshin de ol aqyngha nemese jazushygha qiyanat jasap almaudyng jolyn qarastyryp, jýz oilanyp, myng tolghanyp shyn­dyqty jetkizuding formasyn izdeydi. Tipti ghajayyp shygharma tughyzghan úly jazushylardyng ózderi syn jaz­ghanda sezimge berilip, kóp nәrsening astaryn paryqtay almaghan.
- Mysaly.
- Mysaly, úly Tolstoy. Ayta­lyq, graf Tolstoy shygharmashy­lyq­tary úly qúrmetke layyq Ibsen men Bethovenge tiyisedi. Shekspir «suret­ker bolghan joq» degendi aitugha deyin bardy. Úly jazushynyng «Óner dege­nimiz ne?» degen enbegin oqysanyz, onyng óner turaly týsinigining de asa tereng bolmaghanyn angharasyz. Son­dyqtan da ol Puviz de Shavanna, Mane, Bekliyn, Shtuka, Klingerlerdi dekadentterding qatarynda aralas­tyryp aitady; Miykelandjelony jek kóredi, adamnyng janyn kór­setkisi kelgen suretshilerdi aita ke­lip Rembrandt turaly júmghan auzyn ashpaydy. Tolstoy muzykany bir adam­day jaqsy týsingenimen, ony mýlde bilmeydi. Keyde Tolstoy shalgha kýlking keledi. Rihard Shtraus pen Bramsty bir qatargha qoyyp, úly kompozitor Bethovenge shýiligedi, «Zigfridtin» bir kórinisin, onyng ózin keshigip kelip kórip Vagner turaly «múnday qoyylymdy shyghar­ghan avtordan eshtene kýtpese de bolady, múnday avtor ne jazsa da jaman shyghady» degen synaydaghy pikirdi aitugha deyin bardy.
- Múnyng sebebi nede?
- Basqasyn sóz qylmaghanda Tol­stoydyng әlemdegi úlylardyng bәri moyyndaghan Shekspirge sonshama shýiligui rasynda da adam tangha­larlyq jaghday. Tolstoydyng 28 tom­dyq býkil jazghandary men Shekspiyr­ding dramalyq tuyndylaryn oqyp shyqqan song da búl júmbaqtyng sebe­bin taba almay mening basym qatty. Bir kýni Gorikiyding úly jazushy turaly esteligin oqyp shyqqanymda ghana onyng syryn týsingendey bol­dym.
Tolstoydyng әlem moyyndaghan úly Shekspirding tas-talqanyn shy­ghar­ghan maqalasy jaryq kórgen song Gorikiy men Chehov kezdesip, ózara syrlasady.
- Shaldyng synaytyn adam tap­paghanday Shekspirge shýilikkeni nesi? - deydi Gorikiy. Sonda biraz oilanyp alyp, Chehov oghan bylay dep jauap beredi:
- Bilesin, be Tolstoygha bizdi maqtay salu týkke de túrmaydy. Óit­keni biz onyng talantynyng qasynda ergejeylimiz. Onyng ónerdegi naghyz bәsekelesi - Shekspiyr. Ol - ýlken. Ol - onyng jynyna tiyedi.
Tolstoydyng úly kompozitorlar turaly kózqarasyna baylanysty úzaq jyldar boyy úly jazushy mu­zykany sýigen joq degen synaydaghy pikir aitylyp keledi. Shyndyghynda, búl mýlde olay emes. Qayta kerisin­she, muzykany qatty sýigendikten ol onyng qúdireti meni biylep әketedi me dep qoryqty. «Balalyq shaqta», әsirese «Otbasylyq baqytta» mahab­bat kezeni, onyng kóktemining de, ký­zi­ning de Bethoven shygharghan sonata­sy­nyng muzykalyq shuynyng jaylauynda jarqyrap sala beretinin esinizge týsirip kórinizshi. Sonymen qatar Nehludov pen qaza bolar aldyndaghy, týndegi Petya Rostovtyng jan әleminde oinaghan ghajayyp simfoniyany esi­nizge alynyz. Tolstoydyng muzyka turaly habary shamaly bolsa da, ómirining bir mezgilderinde qatty den qoyyp, oghan qyzyqqan kezderi de boldy. 1858 jyly ol keyinnen Mәs­keu konservatoriyasynyng qúryluyna negiz bolghan muzykalyq qogham qúr­dy.
Tolstoy shygharmashylyghyn zert­tegen Kamil Bellen «nelikten Tol­s­toy әlemdegi eng móldir, minezi taza kompozitor Bethovenning muzykasyn adamdardy azghyndatady dep aiyp­taydy?» dep súraydy.
Sebebi oghan bәrinen de qatty әser etken onyng muzykasy boldy. Tolstoy Bethovendi erekshe jaqsy kórdi jәne ony sýyi eshqashan toq­taghan emes. Balalyq shaghynyng jeke­l­e­gen esteligi Bethovenning «Patetiy­kalyq sonatasymen» baylanysty jәne «Aryludyn» ayaghynda Nehludov Besinshi simfoniyany tyndaghanda, ózin-ózi ayap, kózining jasyn toqtata almaydy.
Tolstoy Bethovendi nege jaz­ghyrady? Onyng kýshtiligi ýshin. Búl jerde ol Getemen yntymaqtas. De-minor simfoniyasyna qayran qalghan Gete ózining erkin biylep alghan ony shygharushygha býkil kәrin tógip qarsy shyqqan-túghyn.
- Synshy retinde aitynyzshy - әdebiyet ne joghaltty, ne tapty?
- Artyq nemese asylyq sóileudi únatpaytyn Chehov bir kýni Buninmen әngimeleskende:
- Erteng Tolstoy ólgen song bәrining de kýlli kókke úshady,- deydi.
- Sonda ne, әdebiyetting de me? - dep tanghalady Buniyn.
- IYә, әdebiyetting de, - deydi Chehov múnayyp.
Chehovtyng kóripkeldigi dәl keldi. Úly Tolstoy dýnie salghan song jeti jyldan keyin Reseyde tónkeris boldy. Ádebiyet - últty adamger­shilikke tәr­biyeleu missiyasynan aiyrylyp, taza iydeologiyanyng qúra­lyna ai­naldy. Reseyde HH gha­syrda Pushkiyn, Lermontov, Gogoli, Tols­toy, Dostoevskiy, Che­hov­qa para-par úly túlghanyng tu­mauynyng sebebining astaryn osydan izdeu kerek.
Bizde de Abaydan song bir ghasyr­dyng shiyreginde azamattyq pozisiyasy biyik, oghan para-par túlghanyng tumauy maqtanysh emes - tragediya. Degen­men bizdegi Abaydan songhy qazaq ruhaniyatynyng basynda bolghan tragediyany esine alsang - jýreging qan jylaydy. Ákesining qúny barday kenes jendetteri qazaq ziyalylaryn qynaday qyrdy. Jәne olardyng әr­qaysysy әdebiyet týgil, bir elding patshasy bolugha layyq qanday aza­mattar edi desenshi! Eger Áuezov te sol jyldary atylyp ketkende әde­biyetimizding keleshegining ne bola­ty­nyn kóz aldyna elestetuge shoshisyn. Tәuelsizdik alsaq ta, basqa halyqtyng aldynda qúldyq úrghymyz kelip túratynymyzdyng ýlken sebebi de osynday azamattardyng joqtyghynan bolyp jatyr. HH gha­syr­da qazaqtan kóp qyrylghan, artyq azap shekken halyq joq shyghar, sirә. Kórgenimiz zorlyq-zombylyq pen teperish bol­ghan song últtyq ruhymyz da әlsirep, әdebiyetimiz de qoghamnyng shynayy bet-beynesin kórsetken úly tuyn­dylar tughyza almady. Jýz­degen myng qazaqtar qoldan jasalghan ashar­shy­lyqtan óldi. Milliondaghan bauyr­la­rymyz shetelge qashty. Qan­shama ziyalylarymyz jazyqsyz atyl­dy. Jazyqsyz sottalghandary qanshama. Ókinishke qaray, bizding әde­biyetimiz últymyzdyng basyndaghy osy trage­diyany jaza almady. (Orys­tarda basyn ólimge tigip búl trage­diyany surettegen jazushy bar. Ol - Aleksandr Soljenisyn.) Últy­myzgha jasalghan ayausyz genosid - qazaqty qatty shoshytyp tastady. Kenes ókimeti qúlamay taghy jiyrma jyl túrghanda orysqa sinip, qúryp ketuimiz de mýmkin edi. Qúdaygha shýkir, tәuelsizdik aldyq. Biraq sol jyldardaghy ýreyding salqyny әli de boyymyzdan kete qoymaghan synayly. Sorlylyghymyz sonshama, әli kýnge deyin asharshylyqtyng zardabynan qazaqtyng keng dalasynda sýiegi sha­shylyp qalghan ata-babalarymyzdyn, atylyp ketken Alashtyng aptalday azamattarynyng qúnyn súraudan qorqamyz.
Endi eng bolmaghanda ghasyrymyz­dyng basyndaghy Alash azamattary kótergen azattyq iydeyasyn óltirip almaugha tyrysuymyz kerek. Eger olar múrat etken azattyq iydeyasyn óltirip alsaq -últ retinde birte-birte joyylyp ketuimiz de mýmkin.
- Ángimenizge raqmet!

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