Ukrainadaghy sayasy ahual býkil әlem júrtynyng nazarynda. «Týrkistan» gazeti de halyqaralyq mәseleni jiti nazarda ústap otyr. Biz sayasattanushy Aydos Sarymnyng Ukrainadaghy jaghdaygha baylanysty pikirin bilgen edik.

–Ukrainada Maydandaghyhalyqdegeninejetti. Merzimnentyssaylau 25 mamyrgha bekitildi. Býgingi sayasy ýderisterge qanday bagha beresiz? Halyq kimge senui mýmkin?

Ukrainadaghy sayasy ahual býkil әlem júrtynyng nazarynda. «Týrkistan» gazeti de halyqaralyq mәseleni jiti nazarda ústap otyr. Biz sayasattanushy Aydos Sarymnyng Ukrainadaghy jaghdaygha baylanysty pikirin bilgen edik.

–Ukrainada Maydandaghyhalyqdegeninejetti. Merzimnentyssaylau 25 mamyrgha bekitildi. Býgingi sayasy ýderisterge qanday bagha beresiz? Halyq kimge senui mýmkin?

– Mening oiymsha, qazaq qoghamy bauyrlas Ukrainada bolyp jatqan kýrdeli jәne taghdyrly ýderisterge múqiyat zer salyp, talay dýniyeden sabaq alghany dúrys dep sanaymyn. Jәne de shyndap keletin bolsaq, songhy 4-5 ay ishinde bolghan oqighalardy últ-azattyq revolusiya, ukrain últtyq memleketin, sayasy últyn qúru, qalyptastyru jolyndaghy halyqtyq revolusiya dep qabyldaghanymyz dúrys. Ókinishke qaray, halqymyzdyng basym bóligi, әsirese orystildi qauym osy elde bolyp jatqan jaghdaydy negizinen orys teledidary arqyly, orys sarapshylary men sayasatkerlerining kózimen qarap keledi. Osy sebepti de Ukrainagha qatysty jayttardy, ondaghy asa kýrdeli ýrdister men ýderisterdi qauip-qater, baryp túrghan bassyzdyq, kózsizdik, tipti qiyanat, satqyndyq kategoriyalarynda qarastyryp, qabyldauda. Tipti ondaghy jaghdaydy dәstýrli «orystildi shyghys pen ukraintildi batys arasyndaghy qaqtyghys» dep saralap jýrgender de az emes. Óz basym búnday kózqarastardy birjaqty, ýstirt dep sanaymyn. Búl kózqarastar men payymdargha bas úratyn bolsaq, onda ukrain qoghamynda bolyp jatqan ýderisterdi týsinbegenimiz. Kóptegen jaghdayda bizding qogham kelesi preziydent kim bolmaq, biylikke kim keledi degendey súraqtarmen aldanady. Shyntuaytyna kelsek, Ukrainanyng kelesi preziydenti kim bolady degen súraq mýldem manyzdy emes. Ukrain revolusiyasynyng basty sabaghynyng biri – osy elde biylikke monopoliyalyq ýstemdik ornata alatyn, biylikti menshiktep, erttep minip alatyn birde-bir kýsh qalmady. Ukrain sayasaty barlyq mәseleni kelisip pishu, barsha kózqarasty egjey-tegjeylep, esepke alyp, sanasyp sheshetin jaghdaygha jetti. Elding bolashaghy at tóbelindey ghana azghantay toptyng qolynan myndaghan, tipti milliondaghan belsendi azamattardyng qolyna kóshti deuge bolatyn shyghar. Býgingi kýni Ukraina sayasatkerlerining barlyghy óz tynys-tirshiligin halyqtyng mýddesimen, keshe ghana Euromaydanda tórt ay boyy suyghyna tonyp, otyna kýiip, ozbyr biylikpen atysugha deyin barghan, oqtan da, ottan da qoryqpay, qasarysyp túryp alghan ór halyqtyng talabymen ólsheuge mәjbýr boldy. Búl túrghydan qarasaq, Yuliya Timoshenko siyaqty ukrain sayasatynyng sanlaghy da keshegining adamyna ainalyp barady. Jalpy, halyq kýni ótken sayasatkerlerden sharshaghan siyaqty. Osy sebepti de Maydan eldegi irip-shirigen baylargha, keshegi jemqorlyq jýiede boy kótergen qor-kapital, iri menshikke ie bolghandardy, sol jýieni qalyptastyrghan sayasatkerlerge asqan kýdikpen qarauda. Olargha ýzildi-kesildi týrde qarsy shyghuda. Ashyq sayasatqa aralastyrmaymyz dep talap qoyda. Jaqynda qabyldanghan zandargha say búnday azamattargha, jýz jerden keremet, aqyldy, belsendi, enbegi sinse de olargha resmy sayasatqa aralasugha, jana ýkimetke mýshe bolugha, lauazym iyesi atanugha tyiym salyndy. Búny ghylymy tilmen aitsaq, lustrasiya deuge tolyq bolady. Yaghny ukrain qoghamy, últy ishi-syrtyn, biylik aghzasyn, qúrylymyn tazartugha, keshegi kenestik qalyptan arylugha kirisip ketti. Elde shynayy otarsyzdanu jýrip jatyr. Bir kýnning ishinde Leninning 18 qaladaghy eskertkishining oirandaluy da osy sebepti. Osy túrghydan qarasaq, Yuliya Timoshenko hanymnyng kelesi preziydent boluy ekitalay siyaqty bolyp kórinedi. Onyng ýstine týrmede densaulyghy syr bere bastady. Áriyne, Timoshenko da onaylyqpen beriler sayasatker emes. Áli ózining aitqanyn aityp, jasaryn jasaytyn tarlan sayasatker. Dey túrghanmen býgingi ukrain halqynyn, jastarynyng talaby eselep artty. Sondyqtan da kelesi preziydentti últtyq revolusiyany iske asyrushylardyng qatarynan, jana buyn sayasatkerler tarapynan izdegen dúrys shyghar. Eldegi jaghdaydyng shiyelenisuin eskerer bolsaq, aldaghy saylau nәtiyjesinde biylikke talaptary baysaldy, sabyrly, saliqaly, orystildi qauymdy qorqytyp-ýrkitpeytin, revolusiyashyl kýshterding de kónilin taba alatyn Klichko siyaqty kelisimpaz túlgha kelui yqtimal dep aitar edim. Qoghamnyn, saylaushylardyng kónil-kýii әste ózgerip shyghuy da ghajap emes. Ukraina bizdegidey saylau bolmay jatyp, kimning qansha payyz dauys alatynyn bilip otyratyn qogham emes. 25 mamyr kýni bolatyn saylau dәl osynysymen qyzyqty, osynysymen manyzdy der edim.

– Degenmen qan tógildi, atys-shabys boldy. Keshegi preziydentteri dal bolyp, atqaminerleri tyghylar tesik taba almay jýr. Osyghan ne deysiz? Búl sayasy mәdeniyet ýshin mýldem jat nәrse emes pe?

– Áriyne, sózinizding jany bar. Biraq býgingi elimizde qalyptasqan sayasy mәdeniyet mәngi bolady dep kim aitty? Búryn «elu jylda el jana» desek, dәl býgingidey uaqyty men kenistigi tarylghan qoghamda kýrdeli ózgerister 20-25 jylda bolyp túratyny belgili. «Shýkir, tәube» dep ýirengen, qorqaqtyghymyz qangha ghana emes, sýiekke singen, kólenkesinen qorqatyn qogham ýshin Ukrainadaghy jaghday «shekten shyghu» siyaqty bolyp kórinetini de ras. Biraq bizding ukrain qoghamyn sógetin qanday qaqymyz bar? Meninshe, Ukraina halqynyng kóshege shyghuyna negizgi eki sebep bar. Biri – biylikting asyp-tasuy, jemqorlyqqa әbden batuy. Býgin elden bezip, pana taba almay jýrgen talay dókey sheneunikterding zәulim saraylaryn teledidardan, internetten kórsetip jatyr. Eldi sýliktey soryp, bilgenin istep, asyp-tasqan, bizneste birde-bir kýn júmys jasamay bayyghan ukrain sheneunikterining altyn jalatqan saraylaryn kórip, amalsyz janyng týrshigedi. Eldegi jýz myndaghan júmyssyz jastar ashynbaghanda ne isteydi? Revolusiya sharyqtau shegine jetken kýni ukrain әuejaylarynan jýzge juyq jekemenshik úshaqtar shetke úshyp ketken. Halyqtyng qaharynan qoryqqan sheneunikter jighan-tergenin tiyep, bala-shaghasyn alyp, keshe ghana ózderi qarghap-silegen Europagha tayyp túrghan. Osynyng ózi talay nәrseni anghartyp otyr emes pe?

Ekinshi sebep – Yanukovich ýkimeti ukrain halqynyng órkeniyettik tandauyn ayaqqa taptady. Osyghan deyin ukraindyqtar jaqsy bolsyn, jaman bolsyn «Europanyng bóligimiz, sol jaqtaghyday tynysh, beybit, baquatty ghúmyr keshuimiz qajet. Reseyden at-tonymyzdy bólek ústauymyz kerek» degen sheshimge kelgen bolatyn. Búny eldegi últtyq konsensus, jalpyúlttyq kelisimning bir bóligi dep týsingenimiz dúrys. Al Yanukovich ýkimeti ne istedi? Ol Putinning aitaghymen eldegi zandardy qatayta bastady, eldi Kedendik odaqqa kirgizemin, mýshe qylamyn dep baqty. Kelisilip, mejelep, dayyndalyp túrghan kelisimderdi joqqa shygharyp, últty ózeginen tepti. Sol kýni-aq jýzdegen myng adam ortalyq alangha shyghyp, narazylyghyn tanyta bastady. Biyligi aqymaq bolmasa sol kezde sabyrgha kelip, sózge toqtap, opppozisiya ókilderining aitqanyna qúlaq assa, Yanukovich әli de biylik basynda otyrar edi. Biraq, Yanukovich keshegining adamy. Miy, sanasy, oilau jýiesi, sheshimderdi qabyldau tәsili kenestik, kommunistik, qylmystyq qalyptaghy adam. Onyng ýstine kezinde týrmede otyryp, adam tonaghan qarapayym ghana mayda-shýide qylmysker. Reseyding pәrmenimen, qarjylyq, aqparattyq qoldauymen, «orys tilin ekinshi memlekettik til etemin, Reseymen jaqyndasamyn» degen jalghan úranmen biylikke tosyn kelgen adam. Elding ukraintildi, orystildi dep ekige bólingeninen, osy eki ýlken toptyng arasyndaghy qayshylyqtardyng kóptiginen ghana biylikke jetken kezdeysoq personaj. Áriyne, tragediya. 50 million halyqty osynday әperbaqan, kezdeysoq adamnyng basqaruy da tarihtyng talay qiyndyghyn basynan ótkergen últ ýshin mazaq, onyng namysyn keleke etu. Yanukovich arqa sýiegender de janaghyday qylmystyq toptardyn, jemqorlyq arqyly qor jinaghan alpauyt toptardyng ókilderi. Sol Yanukovichting úly men ainalasy 4-5 jyldyng ishinde resmy shirigen milliarder bolghany da sondyqtan. Sanasy, ruhy, namysy oyanghan últ múndaygha tóze alatyn ba edi? Joq, tóze almaydy. Sondyqtan da elde últtyq, bolmysy ukraindyq, últshyldyq revolusiya oryn aldy. Ózim revolusiya degendi qabylday bermeytin adammyn. Barynsha, barlyq isting beybit, evolusiyalyq jolmen sheshilgenin qalaymyz. Al ozbyr biylikting ózi beybit joldardyng barlyghyn tyiyp, búghattap tastasa, halyqtyng aitqanyna jyldar boyy qúlaq aspasa, ashynghan, qorlanghan halyq ne istemek kerek? Keshegi qantógis te tolyqtay biylikting qatesi, kýnәsi. Beybit sheruge, mitingige shyqqan halyqqa qarsy artyq kýsh qoldanu, Reseyden, Ukrainadan jinalghan qylmystyq top ókilderin, jaldanbaly jendetterdi qarulandyryp, qarapayym halyqqa qarsy qoydyng tikeley nәtiyjesi. Bayqasanyz, Ukrainada halyqqa qarsy kýsh qoldanyp, әsire siltegenderding bәri derlik orystildiler. Internet pen baspasózdegi bar derekke kóz salsaq, kóbine ukrain últynyng mún-múqtajyn, arman-múratyn, tilin, dilin, tarihyn ayaqqa taptaghandar. Ózin «biz orystan bólek últpyz ghoy, tarihymyz, tilimiz, mәdeniyetimiz, órkeniyetimiz bar bólek elmiz ghoy» dep bir minut oilanbaghan, últsyzdanghan mәngýrtter. Últyna jany ashyghan kýshtik qúrylymdar, әskeriyler, poliyseyler alghashqy kýnderi-aq «biz halyqpen birgemiz, halyqqa qarsy oq atpaymyz, kýsh qoldanbaymyz» dep túryp alghan joq pa? Yanukovich preziydent әri әskery bas qolbasshy bola otyryp, Ukraina qorghanys ministrligining birde-bir jasaghyn, qosynyn, bólimshesin iske qosa almady. Armiyadaghy generaldarynyng últtyq kategoriyada oilay alatyn dәrejege jetip, bolashaghyn oilay alatyn da myqtylyghy bolar... Al «qan tógildi» degenge kelsek, әriyne búl asqan tragediya. Jýz shanyraq shayqaldy. Jýz arman, jýz múrat ghayyp boldy, qyrshynnan qiyldy. Ókinishti. Biraq, әrbir ýlken jenistin, nәtiyjening qúny bolady. Janaghy 100 bozdaqtyng ólimi, kýpirlik bolmasyn, әriyne, ukrain últynyng óz tәuelsizdigi, órkeniyettik tandauy, jarqyn bolashaghy, últtyq memleket qúru múraty ýshin, sayasy azamattyq últ qalyptastyru ýshin, Reseyden tәuelsiz tirlik, ghúmyr keshu ýshin tólegen qúny. Jýz adam osy jolda ózin-ózi sheyit qylghan últ batyrlary. Tariyhqa osy atymen kiredi. Býginde olardy «Nebesnaya sotnya» dep atap, olardyng atymen kóshe men alandardy atap jatyr. Erteng filim de týsirer, talay poema men óleng de arnaytyn bolar. Taghdyrdyng jazghany sol. Resey «Sochi, Sochiy» dep shashylyp, asyp-tasqan kýnderi Ukraina halqy, últy aza tútyp jatty. Sol kýnderi Almaty, Astana, Atyrau siyaqty qalalardaghy últshyl qazaq azamattary da aza tútyp, ukrain últyna qoldau bildirdik. Ukrainanyng elshiligi men konsuldyghyna baryp, kónil aittyq. Dәl osy әngimeni ukrain diplomattaryna da aityp, ukrain baspasóz qúraldaryna, býgingi ukrain revolusiyasynyng basshylaryna da jetkizgendey boldyq. Sebebi bir: keshegi otarlyq qalyptan shyghyp, shynayy tәuelsizdigine úmtylghan halyqtardyng barlyghynyng arman-múraty, jany bir. Bizder osy kýnderi ruhtyq túrghydan ukrain bolsaq, erteng osy halyqtar da qajetti kezde qazaq bola alatynyna esh kýmәndanbaymyn. Ukrainanyng basynan ótken tarihy ózgerister, otarsyzdanu, kenessizdenu ýrdisteri qazaqtyng da basynan ótedi. Qúdaydan bir ghana nәrseni tileyik, búl ózgerister barynsha beybit, adam shyghynynsyz, qantógissiz ótse eken. Al olardyng ótetinine eshkim kýmәn tughyzbasa kerek. Últ bolamyz desek, shynayy tәuelsiz últtyq memleket, qazaq memleketin qúramyz desek, onymyz bayandy bolsyn desek, mәngi bolsyn desek, bizder de osy jolmen jýremiz.

– Jalpy, Ukrainadaghy ahualdyng basqa memleketterge әseri qanday, sonyng ishinde Qazaqstangha? Resey endi qanday әreketke kóshedi?

– Ukrainadaghy jaghday qazaq qauymyna, Qazaqstan halqyna sózsiz ýlken әser etti. Ózim biletin qazaq jurnalisteri, qazaq ziyalysy, últshyl azamattary ukrain halqynyng izdenisterine, revolusiyasyna tilekshi bolyp, taqym qysyp otyrdy. Ukrain revolusiyasyn internet arqyly tikeley efirde zer salyp qarady. Ómiri kirmegen, bilmegen ukrain sayttaryna kirip, zerdelep otyrdy. Osy kýnderi ekining biri «ukraindar ór eken, azamat eken, myqty eken» degen maqtau sózderin ayamady. Sebebi bir ghana – Ukrainanyng Resey yqpalynan, otarlyq qalyptan shyqqanyna yrza bolu, soghan bizder de jetsek eken degen ishinara tilek. Bayaghyda bir ataqty fransuz oishyly «Bizder tarihtan kýl emes, shoq izdeuimiz kerek» degen eken. Sol siyaqty bizder de Ukrainadaghy revolusiyadan kýl emes, shoq izdegenimiz abzal bolar. Býlik emes, qantógis emes, azattyq ruhyn izdesek dúrys bolady. Ukraindar siyaqty auyzbirshilikti, iskerlikti, kósemsiz, tóresiz belsendi tirlikti, azamattyq belsendilikti, ózara úiymdasudyn, әreket etuding ozyq ýlgilerin, últtyq istegi tastay tәrtipti, ortaq mýddege tabynudyng tәsilderin izdesek jón bolar edi. Osy túrghydan alsaq, Ukrain revolusiyasy Reseyding býgingi neoimperiyalyq qúlshynysyna, sayasatyna ondyrmas soqqy boldy. Reseyding yqpalynan әli de shygha almay jatqan elderding barlyghy derlik jelpinip qalghanday. Ukrainanyng qolynan kelgen nәrse, tirlik basqanyng da qolynan kelui kerek degen kónil-kýy bar. Auylda ataqty tóbelesqor, әperbaqan jyndyny qatardaghy qarapayym jigit alyp úrsa, osyghan deyin danqynan, ataghynan qorqyp jýrgenderding barlyghy derlik boy kóteredi emes pe? Dәl sol siyaqty jaghday. Olimpiada dep biraz nәrsening jibin jiberip alghan Resey endi qarymtagha kiriseri anyq. Putin de asqan kekshil túlgha. Ukrain revolusiyasyn ózine qarsy jasalghan, imperiyalyq sayasatyna balta shabatyn ýrdis dep qarastyrary anyq. Resey әli de bolghan jaghdaydy, jana ýkimetti moyyndar emes. Áli talay arandatu, eldi bólu, jikteu әreketterin jasaytyny anyq. Jasap ta jatyr. Resey Ukrainadaghy orystardy kóterip, olargha ekinshi pasport taratyp, qarjylay, aqparattyq, sayasy kómek berude. Týbi eldi ekige jaryp, bólip alugha deyin baruy yqtimal. Birneshe ay boyy orys telearnalary ótirik pen jalghandy shúbatyp, barlyq sharuasyn ysyryp tastap, kýni tek Ukrainamen boldy. Kýn sayyn gazetteri birneshe betterin, telearnalary birneshe saghattaryn ukrain mәselesine sarp etti. Sebebi ukraindar orys ýshin adam emes, orystyng búlynghyr kólenkesi ispettes. Eger Ukrainadan airylsaq, bәrinen airylamyz degen ústanym. Onyng jany da bar. Óz basym jaqsylyqqa, azattyqqa úmtylghan ukrain halqy, elitasy barlyghyna da tótep berip, osy bir kýrdeli, asa qauipti kezennen aman shyghady, shiyrylyp, abyroymen shyghady dep senemin. Europa, AQSh siyaqty alpauyt elder de qarap qalmas. Sebebi keshegi óli imperiyany qalpyna qayta keltiremin dep kýshtenip, tyrashtanyp jatqan Reseydi múqatu olardyng sayasatyna say kelip otyr. Eger Ukraina qayta týlese, qanttansa, onyng jolyna basqa da kenestin, otardyng shiynelinen shyqqan elder men memleketter de týsetini anyq. Búl ýrdis eng aldymen Belorussiya, Qazaqstan siyaqty kezinde orystandyrudyn, otarlanudyng sharyqtau shegin kórgen, sodan talay opyq jegen, zalaly men qiyamet-qayghysyn kóp kórgen elderde jýretin bolady.

– Yanukovichke halyq alandaghy mert bolghan 80 adamnyng qanyn jýktep otyr. Ol memleketti osynday jaghdayda tastap, qashyp ketti. Nege?

– Shynymdy aitayyn, Yanukovich siyaqty qylmysker, aqymaq adam 50 milliondyq últty basqaryp otyrdy degenge sengim de kelmeydi. Ózi sayasatker de emes, Kremliding toqpaghymen biylikke qonghan kiyiz qazyq qoy. Men bilsem, ukrain halqy, últy endi Yanukovichty ólse de keshirmeydi. Artyna týsip, sottaugha tyrysady. Onyng ýstine basqa da bylyqtary ashylyp jatyr. Batys búl qylmysker mәngýrtti qabyldamas. Ári ketse Reseyge baryp panalar. Alayda, erteng Reseye tyng ózgerister bolsa búnysy da bos tirlik bolatyn siyaqty. Yanukovich, әri ketse, halqy qarghaghan, últynan, elinen bezip, kómusiz qalatyn qatardaghy qarabet diktator bolady.

– AQSh, Euroodaq Ukraina halqyna qoldau kórsetti. Al Resey beruge tiyisti 2 mlrd. dollardy da bermey otyr. Ári resmy mәlimde jasaudan bas tartty. Qazaqstan da ýnsiz. Nege?

– Qazaqstan ózining dәstýrli sayasatyna salyp, «qay jengening meniki» dep otyr. Ashyq qoldasa, Reseyding narazylyghyna, qaharyna iligetinin biledi. Elinin, halqynyng 50-60 payyzy orys telearnalarynyng yqpalynda bolghandyqtan býgingi biylik Reseyden qorqyp, jaltaqtaytyny anyq. Dәl osy kýnderi Jirinovskiy, Dugiyn, Prohanov, Limonov siyaqty esuas impershilderding Reseyding ortalyq telearnalaryna shyghyp, Qazaqstan ghana emes, barsha Orta Aziya elderine qoqan-loqqy kórsetui de teginnen-tegin emes. Qasaqana jasalghan, ses kórsetuge baghyttalghan zymiyan sayasat. Bizding Syrtqy ister ministrligi osyghan qatysty arnayy mәlimdeme jasaghanday boldy, biraq asa әlsiz mәlimdeme der edim. Shyndap kelsek, býgingi qazaq biyligi osy jaydan talay tәlim alyp, keshendi baghdarlamalar qabyldap, Reseyding aqparattyq, sayasy yqpalynan shyghu jolynda qatty enbektenui kerek der edim. Búl jolda biylikke qol úshyn berip, kómektese alar bir ghana kýsh bar: ol – qazaq últshyldary, qazaqtyng jas buyny, qazaqtyng ziyalysy. Eger biylik basqa emes, óz tynyshtyghyn, óz bolashaghyn oilasa, eng aldymen Resey telearnalarynyng Qazaqstandaghy qyzmetin, taraluyn shektegeni abzal. Bir memlekette eki ústyn, eki sayasat jýre almaydy. Býgingi orystildi qauymdy Reseyding imperiyalyq sayasaty men nasihatynyng yqpalynan bólip-jaryp alyp ketpesek, ertenderi bizding qoghamdy, últty talay qauip-qater kýtip otyrghany býgin lauazymdy túlghalar týgili, besiktegi bala da týsinetin boldy. Búl shynayy azattyq, shynayy tәuelsizdik jolyndaghy qajetti, kezek kýttirmeytin birinshi qadam ghana. Osyny atqarmay, osyny istemey «mәngi bolamyz, qazaq eli bolamyz» degenning barlyghy bos sóz ekeni anyq. Qorytyp aitsaq, ukrain revolusiyasynan talay tәlim men sabaq aluymyz kerek. Eng basty sabaqtary – ruhany salada, ruhany kenistikte ekeni haq. Naqty nәtiyje shyghara almasaq, keshirilmes qatelik bolady.

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