Úly dalany at túyaghymen dýbirletken erjýrek babalarymyz týrkiler tarihyna ózindik ýles qosqan orys ghalymy L.N. Gumiylevting tuylghanyna 100 jyl toluyna baylanysty búl forumgha Resey, Qytay, Týrkiya, Vengriya, Ukraina, Ózbekstan, Qyrghyzstan sekildi memleketterden jýzge tarta arnayy ghalymdar shaqyrylyp, týrkitanu ghylymy ýshin keleli basqosu boldy. Solardyng qatarynda kórshi Qytay elinen kelgen qandasymyz, tarihshy, Qytay qazaqtarynan «Arman asuynda» atty túnghysh roman jariyalaghan, әri túnghysh qytay tiline audarylghan Jaqyp Myrzahanúlymen tildesuding sәti kelgen edi.

Úly dalany at túyaghymen dýbirletken erjýrek babalarymyz týrkiler tarihyna ózindik ýles qosqan orys ghalymy L.N. Gumiylevting tuylghanyna 100 jyl toluyna baylanysty búl forumgha Resey, Qytay, Týrkiya, Vengriya, Ukraina, Ózbekstan, Qyrghyzstan sekildi memleketterden jýzge tarta arnayy ghalymdar shaqyrylyp, týrkitanu ghylymy ýshin keleli basqosu boldy. Solardyng qatarynda kórshi Qytay elinen kelgen qandasymyz, tarihshy, Qytay qazaqtarynan «Arman asuynda» atty túnghysh roman jariyalaghan, әri túnghysh qytay tiline audarylghan Jaqyp Myrzahanúlymen tildesuding sәti kelgen edi.

«Mәdeny múra» memlekettik baghdarlamasy Qazaqstan Respublikasy Preziydenti N.Á.Nazarbaev bastamasymen iske asyryluda. Baghdarlama halyqtyng mәdeny múrasyn, onyng ishinde zamanauy últtyq mәdeniyet, foliklor jәne salt-dәstýrlerin, últtyq tarih ýshin erekshe manyzy bar tarihiy-mәdeny jәne sәulet eskertkishterin qalpyna keltiru, últtyq әdebiyet pen jazbanyng ghasyrlar boyyndaghy tәjiriybesin jalpylau, memlekettik tilde әlemdik ghylymy oilar, mәdeniyet jәne әdebiyet jetistikterining ýzdikteri negizinde tolymdy qor jasaudyng zertteu jýiesin qúrudy qarastyrady. «Mәdeny múra» memlekettik baghdarlamasy - ruhany jәne bilim berudi damytu salalaryndaghy negizgi qújat, strategiyalyq últtyq joba. «Mәdeny múra» jobasy ayasynda jaqynda Astanadaghy L.N. Gumiylev atyndaghy Euraziya últtyq uniyversiytetinde «L.N. Gumiylev múrasy jәne qazirgi euraziyalyq yqpaldastyq IX Euraziyalyq ghylymy forumy» bolyp ótti.
Úly dalany at túyaghymen dýbirletken erjýrek babalarymyz týrkiler tarihyna ózindik ýles qosqan orys ghalymy L.N. Gumiylevting tuylghanyna 100 jyl toluyna baylanysty ótken búl forumgha Resey, Qytay, Týrkiya, Vengriya, Ukraina, Ózbekstan, Qyrghyzstan sekildi memleketterden jýzge tarta arnayy ghalymdar shaqyrylyp, týrkitanu ghylymy ýshin keleli basqosu boldy. Solardyng qatarynda kórshi Qytay elinen kelgen qandasymyz, tarihshy, Qytay qazaqtarynan «Arman asuynda» atty túnghysh roman jariyalaghan, әri túnghysh qytay tiline audarylghan Jaqyp Myrzahanúlymen tildesuding sәti kelgen edi.
- Jaqyp agha, siz tarihshy retinde Gumiylevti jaqsy bilesiz, degenmen osy jolghy bógenayy bólek halyqaralyq ghylymy forum sizdi nesimen qyzyqtyrdy?
- L.N. Gumiylev syndy әigili orys ghalymynyng Kenes Odaghy túsynda «Kóne týrikter», «Qiyal patshalyghyn izdeu» qatarly shygharmalaryn jazyp, birneshe odaqtas respublikalar men avtonomiyaly respublikalardaghy týrkitildi halyqtardyng ata-babalary bolghan, bayyrghy týrikter (Kók týrik handyghy) jóninde ghylymy izdenis jýrgizui shynynda batyldyq edi. Búl naghyz ghalymgha tәn asyl qasiyet. Ol tarihy jazba derekter men halyq ishindegi anyz әngimelerdi sheberlikpen paydalanyp, ghylymy tújyrymdar jasaghan, qaqpay men qysym kóruden, tipti jazalanyp týrmege ketuden qoryqpaghan. Onyng ózge últtyng tarihy enografiyasyn zertteudegi osy erligi Kenes Odaghy ydyraghannan keyin joghary bagha alyp, qúrmetke bólenuining eng ýlken bir belgisi Qazaqstan Preziydentining jarlyghymen Euraziya últtyq uniyversiytetine Gumiylev esimining berilui edi. Búl jolghy osy әigili ghalymnyng tuylghanyna jýz jyl toluyna oray mynaday halyqaralyq ghylymy forumnyng saltanatty ashyluynyng manyzy óte zor. Onyng әr eldegi halyqtar (últtar) tarihyn zertteuding terendeuine ózindik yqpaly bolady degen oidamyn. Sondyqtan búl ghylymy forumgha qyzu yntamen qatynastym. Ár elden kelgen ghalymdardyng әr qyrynan jasaghan bayandamalaryndaghy batyldyq, shynshyldyq, ghylymgha qúrmet meni erekshe jelpindirdi.
- Ózge últ ókili bolsa da, sol kezdegi qiyn-qyspaqqa qaramay týrkiler turaly túshymdy enbek jazghan Gumiylevti qazaq halqy tóbesine kóterip, el jýregi Astanadaghy bildey bir bilim ordasyna esimin bergeni, әriyne, zor qúrmet. Al bes myng jyldyq tarihy bar Qytay elinde týrkiler turaly qanday qúndy derekter bar? Olardy jinaqtaugha qay ghalymdar atsalysyp, qalay kәdege jaratty?
- Qytaydyng «Jiyrma alty tariyh» dep atalatyn úshan teniz, asa qúndy tarihy derekter jiyntyghy bar. Osy tarihnamalardyng túnghyshy «Tarihy jazbalardan» tartyp, eng songhysy «Chin әuleti tarihy tezisterin» qosqanda jalpy qytay әripterining sanaghy boyynsha 4018 buma, 50 million әripten asady. Qazaqtyng arghy tegi bolghan Euraziya kóshpendilerining tike úrpaqtary saqtar men ghúndar jәne qazaq halqyn qalyptastyrghan ertedegi iri úlystyq elderden ýisinder, qanlylar, alandar (keyingi alshyndar), orta ghasyrlyq elderden týrik, týrkesh (dulat), qarlúq, qimaq, qypshaq, nayman, kerey, uaq (onghyt), qonyrat, jalayyr merkit t.b turaly derekterdi Qytaydaghy qazaq ghalymdarynyng ótken ghasyrdyng 90-jyldarynan bas­tap, kóne qytay tilinen qazaq tiline tike audaru jolynda birshama molynan tandap, jýiege keltirip, ghylymy ainalymgha týsirui el ishi-syrtynda alqaugha bólenip, júrt arasynda (әsirese, QR-dyng ghylym salasynda) jyly qarsy alynghan edi. Mine osylaysha «Qytay tarihnamalaryndaghy qazaqqa qatysty derekterdin» birinshi kitaby 1998 jyly, ekinshi kitaby 2003 jyly baspadan shyqsa, ýshinshi kitaby biyl baspadan shyghugha dayyndaluda. Alghashynda tórt tom bolar dep jobalanghan búl ghylymy audarma enbek endi mólsherleuimizshe alty tom bolmaq. Aytpaqshy, Qytay jylnamalaryndaghy qazaqqa qatysty derekterdi taza qytay tili núsqasynan tandap audaru barysynda Qytay ghalymdarynan Shue Zúnjyng men Tyan Uy Jannyng al, akademiyamyzdan Qaharman Múqanúly, Shadyman Ahmetúly, Shynjan televiziyasynan Kәkesh Qayyrjanúly, Shynjang pedagogikalyq uniyversiytetinen Sәmudin Álghazyúly sekildi qytay tiline jetik toptyng qosqan ýlesi óte zor.
- «Kóp jasaghannan emes, kópti kórgennen súra» demekshi, qazirgi eki el ortasyndaghy nemese eki el ghalymdary arasyndaghy týrli mәdeni, tarihi, dostyq qarym-qatynastyng damuyna dәneker bolghan iri oqighalardan sóz qozghasanyz...
- 1992 jyly Qazaqstan últtyq ghylym akademiyasynyng delegasiyasy Qytaygha ghylymy saparmen kelgende olardy Ýrimjide qarsy alu jәne attandyru júmysyna Shynjang Qoghamdyq Ghylym akademiyasynyng basshylarynyng biri - men jauapty bolghan edim. Osy delegasiya qúramynda kelgen Qazaqstan Últtyq ghylym akademiyasy tariyh-etnologiya institutynyng diyrektory, tarih ghylymynyng doktory, professor, akademik Manash Qabashúly Qozybaevpen alghash ret didarlasqanymda kәsiptes, bir-birimizdi búryn syrttay biletindigimizden bolsa kerek, beyne bir kóp jyldar kezdespegen dostar siyaqty qúshaqtasyp, qauyshyp kettik. Ol Qytaydaghy qazaq tarihyn zertteytin ghalymdardan Nyghmet Mynjanúlynyng «Qazaqtyng qysqasha tarihy» (1986-1987jj.), Su Bihay professordyng «Qazaq mәdeniyetining tarihy» (1989j. qytay tilinde) jәne men jazghan «Qazaq halqy jәne onyng salt-sanasy» (1992j.) sekildi kesek ghylymy enbekterdi Qazaqstan zertteushilerine tezirek tanystyru qajet dedi. Áli esimde 1994 jyly Shynjang Qoghamdyq ghylym akademiyasynyng bastyghy Iang Faryn bastaghan ýiirmening Qazaqstangha jasaghan túnghysh ghylymy sapary óte tabysty boldy. Sol retki auyzeki jәne jazba kelisimder nәtiyjesinde eki elde shyghatyn manyzdy gazet jurnaldar ózara auystyrylatyn әri ghylymy auys-týiis jasalatyn boldy. Keyin Manash agha qaytys bolghannan keyin mening jetekshiligimdegi ghylymy tapsyrmalyq top jaghynan audarylyp, dayyndalghan «Qytay tarihnamalaryndaghy qazaqqa qatysty derekterdin» 1-2 kitabyn Qazaqstanda kirillisa jazuynda shygharu jóninde Manash aghanyng izbasary, tarih ghylymynyng doktory, Qazaqstan tarih ghylymy qoghamynyng tóraghasy Mәmbet Qoygeldimen jalghasty ghylymy selbestik ornattym. Kóp ótpey kelisim boyynsha «Qytay jylnamalaryndaghy qazaq tarihynyng derekteri» degen atpen 2006 jyly «Óner» baspasynan shyghyp, Qazaqstanda resmy ghylymy ainalymgha týsip, óz baghasyn aldy.
- Týrkiler turasynda tarih betterin aqtarghan orys ghalymy Gumiylev pen qytay ghalymy Su Bihay ekeuinde úqsastyq bar ma? Ásirese, sizge tanys, bizderge tansyq bolghan Su Bihay turaly qysqasha mәlimet berseniz?
- Gumiylev pen Su Bihay kezinde eki iri elde túryp, jalpy týrik tektes halyqtar (últtar) men olar jasaghan ónirdi zerteuler túrghysynan úqsastyghy bar, biraq meninshe, olardyng naqtyly zertteuinde ózderine tәn erekshelik boldy. Gumiylev jalpy bayyrghy etnostardy, әsirese kóne týrikterdi zertteuge den qoydy. Al Su Bihay kóbinshe Qytay tarihnamalaryndaghy «batys ónirdin» tarihi, geografiyalyq jer-su attary, jartas suretterin zertteumen birge negizgi kýshin qazaqtyng jalpy tarihy men mәdeniyetin zertteuge júmsady. Jәne búl jaghynan tanghalarlyq tabysqa qol jetkizdi. Osy retki ghylymy forumda key ghalymdardyng bayandamasynda aitylghanday, Reseyde Gumiylevti tarihshy dep moyyndaghysy kelmeytinder bar degendey, Su Bihaydy da moyyndaghysy kelmeytin adamdar joq emes. Biraq, búl jaghdaydyng beleng aluynyng ar jaghynda baqtalastyq, kýndestik byqsyp jatqan boluy mýmkin. Mening professor Su Bihaymen tike tanysuym 1980 jyldardyng bas sheninde boldy. Búl kezde ol jasy jetpiske tayaghan qart edi. Men ony sonau 1940 jyldardyng orta sheninen bastap, elimizdegi qazaq halqynan shyqqan әigili tarih ghalymy, til mamany, jazushy Nyghmet Mynjanúly aghamyzben etene dos ekenin jaqsy biletinmin. Balalarynyng aituynsha, professor Su Bihaydyng óz esimi-Uang Rynnan eken. Al, Su Bihay búl kisining qalam aty eken. Keyde, Jiang Runjang degen de qalam atyn qoldanypty. Jiyrma jyldan artyq uaqyt qudalaugha tap bolyp, 1979 jyly әreng erkindik alghan ol Shynjan uniyversiytetinde oqytushy bolyp ornalasqanynda 64 jasqa kelgen bolatyn. Sodan ótken jylgha deyin «Batys ónirding tarihy geografiyasy» (2 tom), «Qazaq mәdeniyetining tarihy», «Shynjan petroglifteri», «Jibek Joly men Qúsannyng tarihy mәdeniyeti», «Úighyr tarihyna zertteuler» sekildi jeti monografiya­sy jәne eki jýzden astam ghylymy maqalasy jariyalandy. Onyng bas­pa betine shyqqan shygharmasynyng ózin aitpaghanda kózi tirisinde baspadan shyqpay qalghan, jazyp bolghan shygharmalarynyng ózi qytay әrpi boyynsha eki million әripke tura keledi eken. Búl shygharmalarynyng arasynda kóptomdy enbegi - «Qazaqtyng jalpy tarihy» men «Qazaq tarihyndaghy ardagerler» atty shygharmasy bar. Osy qajyrly ghalym 64 jasynan dýniyeden kóshken 84 jasyna deyingi jiyrma jylda onyng qanday qajyrly qayratpen enbektengenin, ýsh jýz myng shaqyrymnan artyq jol basqanyn, ýsh million әriptik shygharma jazu ýshin qansha million әriptik material aqtarghanyn, qansha jýzdegen elimiz jәne shetel zertteushilerining shygharmasyn paydalanghanyn óziniz mejeley beriniz. Onyng Japoniya, Qazaqstanda erekshe qúrmetke bólengeni júrtqa ayan. «Tәnirtaudyng qúpiya tarihy - bir qytay oqymystynyng izi» atty arnauly telefilimining Japoniyada kóp ret qoyyluy, al, Qazaqstan jaghynan «Qúrmet gramotasy» tartu etilgeni mine osynyng aighaghy.
- Osy kezekti halyqaralyq ghylymy forumgha baylanysty tarih sýier oqyrmandarynyzgha qay mәseleni aita ketudi paryzym dep bilesiz?
- Qytay qazaqtary qonystanyp otyrghan qazirgi soltýstik Shynjan (Tyani Shani tauynyng soltýstigi Erenqabyrgha - Boghda, Altay,Tarbaghatay, Búratala tauly ónirleri, Jonghar oipaty, Ile, Ertis, Emil ózeni angharlary) jәne Shynjannyng shyghys jaghyndaghy qazirgi Qúmyl-Barkól óniri tegis tarihtaghy qazaqtyng shyghu tegine tyghyz qatysty bolghan saq, ghún, ýisin, iyúzy (núkis), týrik, týrkeshterdin, sonday- aq qazaq Orta jýzi men Úly jýzining qúramyn tolyqtaghan nayman, kerey, arghyn, qypshaq, uaq, qonyrat, ýisin, jalayyr, dulat, merkit qatarly taypalardyng ejelgi atamekenderi jәne olardyng biylik jýrgizgen kólemindegi jerler. Arghy ata babalarymyzdy aitpaghanda, jyl sanaudan búrynghy VII-VIII ghasyrdan bastap XIII ghasyrdyng basyna deyin ilgeri-keyin osy ónirde dәurendep, óz aldylaryna úlystyq (handyq) elder qúrghan týrkesh (dulat), kerey, nayman, qypshaq, qarlúq (arghyn), qonyrat, uaq, jalayyr, merkitterding qazaqtyng ýsh jýzin qalyptastyrghan iri taypalar qatarynda ekeni әlemge әigili. Osylardan kerey, nayman, uaq, qonyrat, jalayyr, merkit qatarly taypalyq (handyq) elderding XII ghasyrdyng sony XIII ghasyrdyng basynda Shynghys qaghan jetekshiliginde kýsheygen mongholdar tegeurininen jogharyda atalghan atamekenderinen airylghany, qazirgi Qazaqstan jerlerindegi tuystar arasyna barghany da tarihy jazba derekter men el ishindegi anyz derekterde dәleldengen. Endeshe olardyng (әsirese, on eki abaq kerey, bir bólim nayman, ýisin rulary jәne ishinara uaq, arghyn t.b ) jonghar joyylghannan keyin, ózderining bayyrghy atamekenine (qazirgi Shynjannyng soltýstigi men Shyghys ónirine) XVIII ghasyrdyng ortalarynan bastap ilgerindi-keyindi oraluy eshqashanda jat jerge kelui emes, qayta ózining ejelgi atamekenine oraluy dep qaraghan jón. Men búl kózqarastarymdy 1990 jyly baspadan shyqqan «Tarihy etnografiyalyq zertteuler» atty ghylymy maqalalar jinaghymda jәne 1992 jyly baspadan shyqqan «Qazaq halqy jәne onyng salt-sanasy» atty kólemdi monografiyamda jazba derekter negizinde jan-jaqty dәleldeuge tyrysqan bolatynmyn. Demek, Qytaydaghy qazirgi biz túrghan jer jat jer emes, qayta bizding bayyrghy atamekenimiz.
- Bir sәt ótkenge kóz jibersek, 1998 jyly Almaty qalasynda QR ghylym ministrligi men Ghylym akademiyasy tarapynan sizge «Qúrmet gramotasy» tartu etilgende keudenizdi qanday kýsh kernep, neni ýmit ettiniz?
- Men búl súraghyna ystyq meyirim tanytqan marqúm Manash aghanyng sózimen qysqasha jauap bereyin. «Ata tarihymyzdyng ashylmaghan syrlary Qytaydyng telegey teniz jylnamalarynda jatyr. Qazaqtyng naghyz tól tarihy jazylu ýshin sizder ol jaqta, bizder búl jaqta ortaq kýsh salatyn bolayyq!»

Súhbattasqan >Ermek QANATBEKÚLY, L.N. Gumiylev atyndaghy Euraziya últtyq uniyversiyteti,
jurnalistika jәne sayasattanu fakulitetining I kurs magistranty

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