Konferensiyamyzdyng kezekti qonaghy Dosay Kenjetay myrza oqyrmandar tarapynan kelip týsken saualdargha jauap beruin ayaqtap otyr. Jauaptar barysynda Dosay Túrsynbayúly, qoghamda ýrey tughyzyp otyrghan vahabizm aghymy turaly bylay deydi: « Búl aghym qazaq músylmandyq týsinigine qarama qarsy baghyttaghy Hanafy mazhabyn «kәpirlerding mahaby» dep tanityn, islamdaghy revolusiyalyq sipattaghy, Maturidy aqidasyna tózimdiligi joq, qazirgi zaman talabyna pysqyryp qaramaytyn, Qúrandy jattandy erejeler men normalar retinde qaraytyn, kez kelgen ayatty sózdik maghynasynda týsinuge shaqyratyn, Tauil degenge jany qas, aqyldyng tarazysyn tónkerip tastaytyn, ózderinen basqanyng barlyghyn mushrik deytin, ózderining sharighatynan basqanyng barlyghyna biydghat retinde qaraytyn, aqyl men naqyldy úshtasyra almaytyn, ózderinshe «islam dinining polisayy» kórinip jýrgen, ghylym men bilimge emes, kórsoqyrlyqqa bastaytyn, saqal men avtomatty ólshemge ainaldyrghan, býgingi islamofobiyanyng negizgi aspektisine ainalghan, kýni ótken eskirgen iydeologiya bolghanymen, Qazastanda jana sipatta tanylyp jatqan, Saudiyanyng ózi qútyla almay otyrghan «izm»».

"Abay-aqparat"

Konferensiyamyzdyng kezekti qonaghy Dosay Kenjetay myrza oqyrmandar tarapynan kelip týsken saualdargha jauap beruin ayaqtap otyr. Jauaptar barysynda Dosay Túrsynbayúly, qoghamda ýrey tughyzyp otyrghan vahabizm aghymy turaly bylay deydi: « Búl aghym qazaq músylmandyq týsinigine qarama qarsy baghyttaghy Hanafy mazhabyn «kәpirlerding mahaby» dep tanityn, islamdaghy revolusiyalyq sipattaghy, Maturidy aqidasyna tózimdiligi joq, qazirgi zaman talabyna pysqyryp qaramaytyn, Qúrandy jattandy erejeler men normalar retinde qaraytyn, kez kelgen ayatty sózdik maghynasynda týsinuge shaqyratyn, Tauil degenge jany qas, aqyldyng tarazysyn tónkerip tastaytyn, ózderinen basqanyng barlyghyn mushrik deytin, ózderining sharighatynan basqanyng barlyghyna biydghat retinde qaraytyn, aqyl men naqyldy úshtasyra almaytyn, ózderinshe «islam dinining polisayy» kórinip jýrgen, ghylym men bilimge emes, kórsoqyrlyqqa bastaytyn, saqal men avtomatty ólshemge ainaldyrghan, býgingi islamofobiyanyng negizgi aspektisine ainalghan, kýni ótken eskirgen iydeologiya bolghanymen, Qazastanda jana sipatta tanylyp jatqan, Saudiyanyng ózi qútyla almay otyrghan «izm»».

"Abay-aqparat"

- Doseke, osy sopylyk joldaghy maqsat Allagha jetu, qauyshu. Al osy jolda pirding qanshalyqty roli bar. Onyng razylyghy, nazary, kelisimi ruhany damuyna nemese sopylyq joldaghy saparyna sepitigin nemese kedergisin tiygizedi me? Eger pir әdiletsiz bolsa she? Pirding aitqany, oilaghany tikeley Alladan dep payymdaugha bola ma?

- Súraghynyzdyng jauaby ishinde eken. Eger piring kemel adam bolsa, onda saghan septigi bar, al eger jalghan pir bolsa, uaqytyng bosqa ketkeni. Eger piring kәmil bolsa, onda «fana fy shayh» maqamy boyynsha, osy jolda damu kórsetesin.

- Kóshpeli babalarymyz, әsire dindar bolmaghan, dinning bәrine shydammen qaraghan, biraq ózderi jaratqanshyl bolghan. Sebebi nede dep oilaysyz?

- Sebebi, jauabynyzdyng ishinde saqtauly túrghan siyaqty. Týrkilik dinning uniyversaldylyghynda jәne siklidi oilau jýiesinde jatyr.

- Múrat Adjidyng enbekterimen tanyssyz ba? Hristian dinine qatysty jazbalaryna ne deysiz?

- Jaqsy jazylghan, tanymdyq bereri bar qúndy enbek der edim.

- IYssauy tarihaty ne sebepti keninen zerttelmegen. Ásirese batys ghalymdary arasynda. Múnyng sebebin M.Búltay aitpaqshy: "IYssauy tarihatynyng 14 gh. joyylyp ketkeninen" izdeu kerek pe әlde Z.Jandarbek aitpaqshy: "Nahshpandiya tarihatynyng iassauiya múralaryn qasaqana qúrtyp, joyghanynan" izdegen dúrys pa?

- Sebebi, Iassauy tariqatynyng kenistigi negizinen Ortalyq Aziya bolyp qaldy. Al, ol jer keshegi kenestik iydeologiya qyspaghynda boldy. Iassauitanu zertteuleri býgingi tanda endi ghana qolgha alyna bastady.

- Shәkәrimdi, Abaydy, Mәshhýrdi sopy dep jýr. Sopy bolsa, olar qay tarihattyng ókili eken? Álde sopy bolu ýshin tarihat, pir shartty nәrse emes pe?

- Mәshhýr men Shәkәrim babalar naqshy tariqatynan susyndaghan. Sopy bolu tariqattyng «tәuba» maqamynan ótip, pirge qol berumen bastalatyn úzyn da búralany kóp, qiyn da auyr jol. Sabyr maqamyna jetu ekining birining qolynan keletin is emes.

- 2012 jyl turaly el ishinde әngimeler bar. Osy jyly Mahdy kelmey me? Jalpy óziniz osy iydeyagha qalay qaraysyz.

- Mahdy iydeya retinde sunniylerde de bar. Jalpy barlyq din ataulynyng ózinde bar qúbylys. Sondyqtan osy fenomendi uniyversaldy dey alamyz. Al, eger biyl mahdy kelse, kýtip alamyz...

- Eger sopylarda aqiqat bolsa, nemenege bólingen. Mysaly, Nahshbandiya, Yassauiya, Kadariya, Bektashiya jәne t.b.

- Haqiqatqa bara jol sheksiz. Sondyqtan oghan barar jol, yaghni,  metod da sheksiz sondyqtan tariqattar da ózining әdisterine qaray, kenistigine qaray bólinip kete beredi. Onda túrghan eshtene joq.

- Sopy bolghan jaqsy ghoy, biraq anau basty arly berli shayqap, jyndy baqsylarsha miyn maysha shayqau adamy qalypqa jarasady ma eken, Dosay agha? Qalay oilaysyz? Ruhany mәngýrttikting belgisi emes pe eken?

Dosay agha, sopylyq tarihymyz degenmen, osy bas shayqau әreketin shyn kónilinizben qabyl ettiniz be, týisiginiz dúrys qabyldady ma? Dosay aghadan jauap kýtemin. Aldyn ala rahmet.

Astanalyq qaryndasynyz

- Ol - zikir saludyng formasy ghana. Ony «chahar zarb», yaghni, tórt jaqtan úru degen sóz. Jýrekti zikirmen iygeru metody. Psihotehnikalyq tarihy tereng әdis. Ony býgingi sopylar oilap tapqan joq, ol búrynnan bar, jahry tariqattardyng zikir salu formasy. Onyng týrleri de kóp, zikry arra, zikry halqa, zikry zangy jәne t.b. jalpy jahry zikirding otyzgha juyq týrleri bar.

- Dosay Túrsynbayúly, QR Din isteri agenttigining Sopylyqqa kózqarasy qanday? Ol jerdegi mamandar, basy Q.L.Sharif bolyp, Yassauiya tariqatyn tolyqtay bile me?

- Kózqarastary belgili. Onda men tanityn qazaqstanda túnghysh filosofiya boyynsha doktorlyq qorghaghan Aydar Ábuov Parqúlúly, әdebiyet salasy boyynsha Aynúr Ábdirәsilqyzy Týlkibaeva bar. Jalpy Iassauiydi biledi dep esepteymin.

- Sәlemetsiz be, Dosay agha! Qazaqstanda vahhabitter sonshalyqty tereng tamyr jayghan ba? Vahhabizm bizge nesimen qauipti?

- Qazirgi qazaq jastary arasynda óte tereng yqpalgha ie aghym bolyp otyr. Búl aghym qazaq músylmandyq týsinigine qarama qarsy baghyttaghy Hanafy mazhabyn «kәpirlerding mahaby» dep tanityn, islamdaghy revolusiyalyq sipattaghy, Maturidy aqidasyna tózimdiligi joq, qazirgi zaman talabyna pysqyryp qaramaytyn, Qúrandy jattandy erejeler men normalar retinde qaraytyn, kez kelgen ayatty sózdik maghynasynda týsinuge shaqyratyn, Tauil degenge jany qas, aqyldyng tarazysyn tónkerip tastaytyn, ózderinen basqanyng barlyghyn mushrik deytin, ózderining sharighatynan basqanyng barlyghyna biydghat retinde qaraytyn, aqyl men naqyldy úshtasyra almaytyn, ózderinshe «islam dinining polisayy» kórinip jýrgen, ghylym men bilimge emes, kórsoqyrlyqqa bastaytyn, saqal men avtomatty ólshemge ainaldyrghan, býgingi islamofobiyanyng negizgi aspektisine ainalghan, kýni ótken eskirgen iydeologiya bolghanymen, Qazastanda jana sipatta tanylyp jatqan, Saudiyanyng ózi qútyla almay otyrghan «izm». Búl turaly tolyghyraq mening «Diny tanym jәne onyng satylary» degen enbegimnen oqularynyzgha bolady.

- Assalaumaghaleykum, Dosay agha. Jogharyda әr aluan tamasha súraqtar qoyylyp jatyr. Kommentshilerding diny bilimderine sýisinip otyrmyn.

Yassauy tariqaty men Qadariya tariqattarynyng úqsastyqtary men aiyrmashylyqtary turaly aitynyzshy?

- Ekeui de islamdaghy negizgi tariqat retinde sunny tarihynda erekshe oryngha iye. Ayyrmashylyghy metodtarynda ghana, ústanymy men iydeyasy bir. Zikirleri negizinen jahri. Kenistikteri de ortaq, Týrkiyada keninen taraghan.

- Búrynghy kezdegi naqyshpandiya ókilderi men qazirgi kezdegi naqyshbandtardyng aiyrmashylyqtary bar ma?

- Tariqat retinde metodologiyalyq aiyrmashylyq   kórinbeydi. olardyng ókilderining mektepterine qaray kóp tarmaqqa bólinip ketken.

- Týrkiya elinen kelip missiyanerlik sayasatyn op-onay iske asyryp jýrgen "núrshylar" (Gulenshiler dep atalyp jýr songhy kezderi) qazaq eline qauipti me? Bolsa, nesimen?

Sayasatqa aralaspaghansha qauip joq. Olardyng metodologiyalyq, sosiologiyalyq jәne iyerarhiyalyq tereng negizderi ýrkitedi. Aqidasy men ústanymdary jat emes. Olardan qorqatyndar sayasy sipatynan qauiptenedi. Mysaly, Resey.

- "Muzyka tyndau haram" deushilerge jauabynyz qalay bolady?

- Islamda muzykanyng orny erekshe. Payghambarymyz muzykany jatsynbaghan. Sondyqtan Faraby atamyz «»Ýlken muzyka kitabyn» jazyp qaldyrghan. Ondaghy tanymdyq negiz әlemmen ruhtyng ýndestigi muzyka arqyly baqytqa jetumen týsindirilgen. Al muzykany haram degender kókiregindegi ruhtyng qay әlemnen ekendigin sezinbey jýrgender... Olar kóbinese soqyr senim men úrandap jýrgen, islamnyng mәninen jyraqtaghandar bolu kerek. Qazir oghan tang qalugha bolmaydy, bas basyna muftiylerding kóbeygen kezi. Muftiattyng ýnsizdigining nәtiyjesi.

- Yasauy atamyzdyng Qúran men sunnadan esh alshaq ketpegenin qalay dәleldeymiz?

- Dәlel degen sóz artyq. Ony dәleldeu emes, qalay bilemiz, qalay tanimyz degen dúrys. Al, onyng sózderi Qúranmen ýndese me deseniz onda hikmetterin alyp, Qúran ayattarymen salystyryp kóriniz. Ózi «Mening hikmetterimning bar maghynasy Qúrannan», «Mening hikmetterim hadisting keni» dep anyqtaghan. Iassauy ilimi Qúrandaghy moralidyq jelini ózine negiz retinde alghan. Sondyqtan ony Shәkәrim ar týzeytin ilim degen. Tolyghyraq «Qoja Ahmet Iasauy dýniyetanymy» degen enbegimnen oqynyz.

- Elimizde qúrylghan diny agenttikting atqaryp jatqan júmystaryna qanday pikir aitasyz jәne osy agenttik siz siyaqty ghalymdarmen kenesip júmys jasay ma?

- Osy súraq aldynda da qoyyldy. Biraq qysqa jauap bergenmin. Taghy qayta qoyylghanyna qaraghanda qanaghattanbaghan bolu kerek. Súraqtyng tórkini tanys siyaqty... Dúrys oidyng jetegimen saraptap qaraytyn bolsaq, keshegi diny ister komiytetining ornyna «agenttik» qúryldy. Demek komiytet pen agenttikting arasynda aiyrmashylyq boluy tiyis. Komiytetting qúzyry jetpeytin mәselege agenttik bara alu kerek. Yaghni, agenttik qoghamdaghy din fenomenin kompleksti týrde qolgha alyp diny mәselelerding sheshu joldary men mehanizmderin kórsetui kerek. Kerek deseniz keshe ghana qabyldanghan dinge qatysty zandardyng oryndaluynyng ýilestirushisi osy agenttik bolu kerek. Din men memleket araqatynasynan tuyndaytyn sayasi, әleumettik, mәdeni, sosiologiyalyq jәne psihologiyalyq, sonymen qatar qauipsizdik mәselelerine de osy agenttik belsendi oryn alu kerek. Qoghamdyq instituttarmen baylanysty jәne qadaghalaudy da, basqa da memlekettik qúrylymdarmen ortaqtasa otyryp sheshuge tiyisti  - osy agenttik. Biraq ashylghaly beri agenttikting osy aitylghan salalar boyynsha atqaryp jatqan kózge kóriner, úsynystary men sheshimderin yaky әreketterin bayqamadym. Ghylymy kenes qúrdy ma ol jaghyn bilmedim. Qúrylsa da men mýshe emespin. Jalpy biyl qúrylghanyna jyl tolatyn, atqarghan júmystary әli kórine qoymaghan, aty bar da zaty ýnsiz agenttik әrdayym zertteushi ghalymdardyng nazarynda bolady. Aldaghy uaqytta agenttik fenomenining bar boluynyng tarihy alghysharttary turaly saraptama dayyndalyp jatyr. Sebebi, qoghamdaghy din fenomeni - zertteu nysanym. Agenttik memlekettik organ, ol qoghamdyq mәseleni sheshu ýshin qúrylghan. Al, biraq, muftiattyng ornyn basqysy keletindigin «tújyrymdamagha» qatysty synaghanmyn. Meninshe, zayyrlylyq degen ústanymdy basshylyqqa alyp, memlekettilikte tarihy sabaqtastyqqa úmtylyp, tek stoldyng ýstinde aqpar jinap emes, qoghammen etene jaqyn júmys istese, jaqsy nәtiyje shygharady dep oilaymyn.

- Sopylyqtyng adasulary:
Sopylardyng keybireuleri aruaqtargha syiynsa, bireuleri siqyr jәne sәuegóilik jolyna týsti. Kesene túrghyzugha, әuliyelerding qabirlerin kóteruge jәne olardy ziyarat etuge, ziyarat etu barysynda sipau sekildi Qúranda eshbir mәlimet joq jayttardy istep, biydghat jolyna týsti.
Keybireuleri әuliyeler qúlshylyq etpese de bolady, óitkeni olar belgili maqamgha jetkende ghibadatqa múqtajdyq qalmaydy deydi. Sebebi ol (әuliye) sharighy mindettermen ainalyssa jýregindegi qúzyrdy joghaltyp alady dep aitady. Ghazaliyden: Ghurur-kókirektigi tasyp, menmensip ketken adamdardy synap, olardy myna týrlerge bólgen: 1.kiyimimen, kórinisimen, sózimen aldanushylar. 2. Bilemiz, Haqty kóremiz, mәrtebemiz joghary dep daulaushylar. 3. Halal men haramdy ajyratpaytyn, sharighatty ayaq asty etushiler.
Olardyng keybireuleri amal jasaudyng eshbir salmaghy joq. Negizgi mәsele jýrekte, bizding jýregimizdegi Allagha degen mahabbat, Allagha degen tanymdylyqqa jeteleydi. Qolymyz dýniyege batqanymen jýregimiz Allada, sonday-aq, bizding syrtymyz shahuatpen bolghanymen jýregimizde onyng әseri joq. Sopylar pirlerine «Ghaus jәne Ghiyas» degen, qazaqshasy «Qútqarushy, kómekshi», sózdi qoldanady.
Árbir tariqattyng ózining aitatyn zikiri bar. Mysaly, Naqshibandiya tariqatynda «Alla» degen sóz, Shaziliyada «Lә ilaha illa Alla» sózi, múnan basqa, istiyghfar jәne payghambarymyzgha salauat aitu da qosylghan. Keybireuleri zikirge qatty kirisip ketken kezderinde tek «Hua, hua» dep te aitady. Sonday-aq, keybir tariqat «zikir jahriya»-dauystap aitylatyn zikirdi qabyldasa, keybiri «zikir mahfiya» - «ishten aitatyn zikirdi», keybiri mýldem sharighatta kórsetilmegen zikirding týrin qabyldaydy, ayqyn dәlel - Ismatullashylar. Sopylardyng «hulul jәne ittihad» - «Allanyng kelui men pendemen birigui» senimine bet alyp ketui, tariqat joly deneni qinaudan túrady deui siyaqty islamgha jat amaldary da kóp, al onday amaldar sopylyqqa ýndilerden, grek filosofiyasynan, hristiandyqtan engen.
Sopylyq - Islamda joq diniy-sayasy qozghalys. Sopylyqty uaghyzdaytyn tәlimdi «tasauuf» dep ataydy.Alghashqyda nәpsi tәrbiyesine úmtylghan sopylardyng kóbi keyindeu taqlid (yaghni, búrynghylar ústanghan Qúran men sunnet) jolymen emes, birte-birte ózderin ýndi, parsy, grek siyaqty hristiyandyq anyz-әfsana aralasqan filosofiya arqyly tәrbiyeleuge, Allany tanugha úmtylyp, sonyng saldarynan islam sharighatynan auytqydy...

- Sopylyqty týsinbegender týsinbedim dese, Allanyng qúly bolar edi. Shetterinen pәtu berip, mufty bolghysy keledi. Ýkimdi muftiatqa qaldyrynyzdar. Myjyp qaytem, islamda sopylyq joq degen sóz, qazaqtar islamda joq, endi, ghana músylmandyqty qabyldap jatyr degen sóz. Búl qay tarihy tanymgha say ekendigin ózderiniz baghamday berinizder...

- Ahlu sýnnet jamaghattyng senim (iman, aqida) mәselesinde Imam Ashary men Imam Maturidy mazhabtaryn ústanatyny belgili. Býkil sýnnit músylmandar osy eki mazhabty qabyldaydy. Biraq tanymdyq mәselelerde aiyrmashylyqtar bar, mysaly, ashariylerde adamgha Allany tanyp bilu sharighat túrghysynan mindet, maturidiyde adamgha Allany tanyp bilu aqyl túrghysynan mindet bolyp keledi. Taghy bir mysal, qazaqtar hanafy mazhabyndamyz, basqada halyqtar hanafy mazhabynda, biraq mәdeniyetimizde, yaghni, últtyq bolmys, tanym, qúndylyq, әleumettik ómir, tәrbiye,  әielder jәne t.b turaly aiyrmashylyqtar aspan men jerdey. Bizding anau diny qyzmetkerler, moldalar hanafiymiz dep aitady, biraq jogharydaghy súraqtar jauapsyz qalady. Memlekettik mekemeler men ghalymdar shet jaghasyn shatyp bir nәrse aitqanmen, ashylmay jatyr. Teologiyalyq, ghylymi, tarihiy-mәdeni, yaghni, әr qyrynan osy mәseleni zerttep, negizdeu kerek sekildi. Elge uaghyz, ýgit nasihat jýrgizgende osy súraqtardy sharighy jәne ghylymi, últtyq tanym túrghysynan ashyp aitsa. Sizding pikiriniz qanday.

- Oiynyz óte qúndy. Rahmet! Shyndyghynda hanafy mazhabyndamyz degenmen, týrki halyqtaryn ghana alayyq, mәdeny jәne diny qabattarymyz bir bolghanmen, saltymyzda, týsinikterimizde aiyrmashylyq bar. Sonyng negizi nede? Ol, әriyne, últttyq erekshelikti baghamdaytyn dil, últtyq psihologiya men diny tәjiriybege qatysty tirshilik ústyndary desek bolady. Osy tústy imamdarymyz jetkize týsindire almay keledi. Sebebi dindi býgingi ghylymmen úshtastyra almauynan dep bilemin. Eger dindi qúbylys retinde taldaudy mengerseniz qiyn emes. Sol kezde qay normativter dinge, qaysysy dәstýrge qatysty ekendigi ózdiginen ortagha shyghady. Yaghni, dindi qoghamdaghy әleumettenu kórinisinen-aq tanyp, talday bilu kerek. Býgingi teolog mamandardy osy jaghynan terendep oqytyp jatyrmyz. Qazir din dese, tek qana sharighat yaghni, qúqyqtyq túrghydan ghana týsindiruden әrige bara almaymyz. Sebebi qoghamdyq baghdar solay, úsynylyp jatqan diny tanym shenberi solay. Al, ol qanshalyqty nanymdy bolady, adam sanasyna, diline ýilesimdi me, mine, osy jaghy elenbey jatady. Uaqyt óte kele búl ýderis te óz ornyn alady. Jalpy din fenomenologiyasy túrghysynan islam bireu, onyng ekinshisi, qalalyghy ne dalalyghy joq. Tek qana islamnyng týsindirilu, qabyldau ereksheligi, metodologiyasy arqyly qalyptasqan diny tәjiriybesi bar. Sol qúbylys, yaghni, diny sana,  diny tanym  men sol halyqtyng músylmandyghyn anyqtaydy.

- Elimizde az da bolsa dintanu mamandary dayarlanuda. Sol mamandardyng bilim dengeyi oilantady, sizding uniyversiytetting týlekteri býgingi talapqa jauap bere me? Dinge adam jýrek qalauymen keledi emespe, sizding shәkirtteriniz she?  Joq ÚBT-dan ýitip-býitip ótip alyp,  dintanu men teologiyanyng baly az dep týsip jatyr ma? Osyghan qatysty bir maqala oqyghan edim, sol shyndyqqa janasatynday ma, qalay.

- Mәsele súraq retinde jaqsy qoyylghan dep esepteymin. Shyndyghynda býgingi din mamandaryn tandauda últtyq biringhay test ólshem bola almaytyndyghyn uaqyt kórsetip otyr. Býgingi qoghamnyng qajettiligi men din ahualyn eskere otyryp, diny bilim talapkerlerin jeke sóilesu arqyly qabyldaghan dúrys dep esepteymin. Al, eger test jalghasa beretin bolsa, onda mamandyqty arnayy tandaghandar qatarynda, әiteuir student bolghysy keletinder de sanatqa enip, bosqa uaqyt ótkizetin bolady. Ne diny maman bolyp jarytpaydy ne ózine paydasy bolmaydy. Memleketting qarjysy bosqa shashylady. Sondyqtan ózi az ghana bólingen grantqa maqsaty men niyeti say, dinge bet búrghan jas talanttardy tandauda osynday joldy izdegen jón.

- Dintanu oqulyghy turaly bilsek, jalpy dintanudy oqytudy mektepke kirgizudi dúrys dep esepteysiz be? Qúrmetti Dosay myrza, birer jyl búryn orta mektepterge arnalghan "Dintanu" pәni oqulyghynyng redaksiyasyn basqaryp, jazyp shyqqan edinizder. Diny senim mәselesin últtyq qúndylyqtargha, qazaqy dýniyetanymgha baylanystyra tereng týsindiretin jýieli enbek sekildi edi. Biraq, býginde mektepterge jogharydan: "Dosay Kenjetaydyng "Dintanuyn" jolatpandar!" degen qatang búiryq týsipti. Múnyng sebebi turaly aita alasyz ba? Oraldan Rafilbek

- Dindi tanu mektep oqushylarynyng qúqy әri zaman talaby. Býgingi qoghamdaghy jat pighyldy dinderding diyversiyasynan arashalau ýshin de shart. Sondyqtan oqulyq osy talapty kóteretindey qajettilikpen jazyluy tiyis. Bizding avtorlyq top osy ústanymdy negizge aldyq. Ministrlikting oqulyqqa degen monopoliyasyn, eski bilim beruden qalghan standarttardan arylyp, aimaqtyq mektepterge oqulyq tandau qúqyn bergen jón. Alternativti birneshe oqulyq jýru kerek. Sonda damu bolady. Áytpese, bir ministr ózine jaqqan avtordyng kitabyn ótkizuge tyrysady, kelesi ministr auysqanda basqa avtordyng oqulyghy aldynghynyng ornyn basady. Búl jastardyng taghdyryna әser etetindigin oilanatyn kez jetti. Al, qazir oqulyq mazmúny emes, avtory kim soghan qaray mektepke joldama berilip jatyr. Árbir oqulyqtyng ózindik orny men tarihy bar, onyng baghasyn bolashaq beredi. Búl ýzdiksiz prosess.

- Sopylyq, sopylyq deysiz, osy sopylyq mәdeniyetting qazaq topyraghynda qanday izderi men eskertkishteri bar sony taldap berinizshi?

- Sopylyq turaly zertteulerim bar. Degenmen qysqasha aitsam, sopylyqtyng eng basty eskertkishi - Qoja Ahmet Iasauiyding kesenesi. Osy kesene keshegi ateistik qúdaysyzdandyru kezinde búl jer «diar ul islam» dep jar saldy. Jalpy músylmandardy dinin esine salyp túrdy. Sol siyaqty Sayramdaghy sansyz bap, Týrkistandaghy týmen bap, Syr men Ýstirttegi ýsh jýz alpys әuliye, qazaq dalasynyng islam topyraghy ekendigining aighaghy edi. Sonau jer ataulary Sayram rabat, Yassy, Lenger, Tekke, býgingi Astana barlyghy sol sopylyq tanymnyng úghymdary bolatyn. Búl jerde rabat sopylardyng ruhany ortalyghy, lenger ruhty aryltatyn dýken, tekke zikir salatyn jer, Astana adamdy Allagha qauyshtyratyn qaqpa degen maghynagha keledi, sopylyq terminologiyada. Al, endi sanadaghy izderine qysqasha toqtalsaq, «Mәdinada Múhammed, Týrkistanda Qúl Qoja Ahmet, Manqystauda Pir Beket» tirkesi qazaq músylmandyq týsinigi men sanasynyng kelbetindey sayrap jatyr. Sonau Hz. Aliyden bastap Múhammad al Hanafiya sosyn Hallaj al Mansúr, Baba Týkti Shashty әziyz  Yshaq bap pen Arystan Bap, Qara bura men Qaughani, Syghnaqy men Baqyrghani, Iýgneky men Haziny yaghni, Asan Qayghy, Mónkeler, Búhar men Ýsh arys bi, Beket ata, Mәshhýr men Shәkәrim, Abay men Maylyqojalar, Ghúmarlar bolyp kete beredi. Onyng arasynda jyraular men zar zaman aqyndaryn qosynyz, sopylyq bolyp jyrlap, zarlap jatyr, qúlaq týrer úrpaqtary bolsa. Taghy ma, onda « Atibat ul Haqaiyq», «Qút adghu Bilig», «Diuany Hikmet», «Mirat ul qulub», «Ah nihaya», «Qara sózder men anyqtar», «jauahirler» bolyp shirkeuishte hat bolyp, mәdeny múra retinde qorlarda shang basyp jatyr, oqityn úrpaqtary bolsa, «qazaqty Alashtan taraghan» deydi sol atanyz Hallaj bolatyn ol da sopylyqtyng qúrbany edi. Búl da jetpese Elbasynyng bastamasymen jahandanugha jútylyp ketpeyik degen niyetpen atqarylghan «Mәdeny múra baghdarlamasy» ishindegi audarmalardy qarap, iyelik jasap kóriniz. Al endi búl da bolmasa, sizdi tyndaugha dayynmyn qazaqtyng jәdiger úrpaghy!

- Dosay agha, Elbasygha osy sopylyq turaly aittynyz ba? Aytsanyz qanday pikirde boldy ol kisi?

- Eng negizgi túsyn aityp shekteleyin: Elbasygha Iassauiyding tórt ústanymyn aityp berdim. Zaman, mekan, ihuan jәne rabty súltan. Osy tórt ústanym qazaq músylmandyq týsinigining ainasy. Iassauy Alla, әlem jәne adam arasyndaghy ýilesimdilikti Qúran negizinde týsindirip ketken. Sonda adamnyng otany, yaghni, kenistigi, kemeldikke jetui ýshin zaman tynyshtyq, sosyn qazaqtar arasynda bauyrlastyq, jәne memleket ústanymyna adaldyq bolghanda Qazaq eli bayandylyghyn saqtaydy dedim. Onda «Iassauy bizding Konfusiiyimiz» dedi. «Ony әrbir qazaq jastary bilip, tanyp, sýiyi kerek» dedi.

- Qazaqqa islam dinining taraluyn 12 ghasyrdan bastaugha tyrysushylyqta bar. Al, negizinde qazaqqa din islam payghambar ghalayssalam túsynda jetkeni turaly derekter de bar. Al Hanafy mazhaby tarihyda tym aryda. Al Qarahaniyler zamanynda 8-9 ghasyrlarda memlekettik din bolyp bekigen. Tipti Arab jazuy qoldanyla bastaghan. Al әl-Faraby zamanynda músylman týrki mәdeniyetining bir shyrqau biyigi deuge bolady. Ol - 9- ghasyr. Sonda 12-nshi ghasyrdan keyingi sopylyqty islam bastauy etu qanshalyq oryndy? 12-nshi ghasyrdan búryn qazaqtar qanday islam jolyn ústanghan osyghan dәleldi jauap bere alasyz ba ?

- Shyraghym, ghylymda «tyrysushylyq» emes, dәlel men dәiek negizinde týsindiru bar. Eger men tyryssam, qazaqtardy «al misaq», yaghni, Adam Ata jaratylmay túrghanda-aq, músylman bolgha etip kórseter edim. Biraq tarih bar, sebep-saldar qatynasy bar. Tyrysqanynmen bolmaydy. Al, hanafy mazhabynyng qalyptasu ghasyry  8-9-nshy ghasyr, al Qarahan memleketi - 10 ghasyr, islam búl ghasyrlarda belgili bolghanmen, sopylyq tanymnyng әigili basymdyq dәuiri  «tariqat» dәuirinen keyin týrkiler islamgha jylyna bastaghan. Islam dinining jayyluy prosesi Hz. Múhammed payghambardyng kezinen bastap, keyinnen Hz. Ábubakr (632-634), Hz.Omar (634-644), Hz.Osman (644-656) halifatynyng alghashqy alty jylynda qarqyndy jýrdi. Nәtiyjede Arab týbegi tolyq, Vizantiya imperiyasynyng qol astyndaghy Siriya, Palestina, Mysyr jәne sol kezenning quatty imperiyasy Sasaniyler de músylmandardyng qol astyna ótti. Mine, osy Sasany imperiyasynyng ydyrauy týrikterding islammen tanysuyna jol ashty. 642 j. Nihavent soghysynan keyin islam әskeri Ahnaf bin Qays basshylyghynda Jeyhundy (Ámudariya) keship ótken bolatyn. Mine, Mavaraunnahr dep atalatyn aimaqqa arabtar alghash ayaq basqannan ýsh jýz jyl ótken song týrikterding músylmandyqqa boy úru prosesi nәtiyje bere bastady.

Qoja Ahmet Iassauiyding ómir sýrgen kenistigi men uaqyty týrikterding tórt ghasyr boyy islammen tanysyp, key tústarda qauym-qauym bolyp islam dinine kire bastaghan kezeng ekendigi tarihtan mәlim. Iassauiyge deyingi tórt ghasyrdyng nәtiyjesi retinde alghashqyda Abbasy halifaty biyligine qarasty Túlyn (868-905), Saj (890-929), Ihshidiyler (935-969) siyaqty jartylay tәuelsiz týrik sayasy biylikterining artynan Edil-Búlghar handyghy (922j. islam dinine kirgen), Qarahan (Islamdy 944/945 j. qabyldaghan) (840-1212) biyligi, Ghaznauy (963-1186), Seljúqtar (1038-1194) jәne Horezmshah (1092-1221) memleketteri alghashqy jәne óte manyzdy týrik-islam memleketterining payda bolularymen birge tamyry tarihtyng tereninen kele jatqan dәstýrli týrkilik dýniyetanymdyq mәdeniyet qúndylyqtarynyng islamdyq mәdeniyet jәne órkeniyet qabattarymen tanysuy nәtiyjesinde jana týrik-islam mәdeniyeti men órkeniyeti qalyptasa bastaghan bolatyn.

Týrikterding músylmandyqty halyq bolyp qabyldauynda Samaniyler biyligi kezeni óte manyzdy. Samaniyler kezinde payda bolghan "týrikmen" sózi-músylman týrikterdi kóshpendi kafir (músylman emes) týrkilerden aiyru ýshin qoldanylghan. Týrikter músylman bolghan song tarihyn, anyzdaryn, dәstýr-salttaryn, qysqasy mәdeniyetterin islamdyq ruhpen qaytadan qalyptastyrdy. Osylaysha, týrikter shyghu tegin semidterding dýniyetanymyna negizdep, ózderin Núh payghambardyng úly Yafesting (Jappas) túqymyna tireydi. Kóptegen týrik otbasy, Hz. Ali, keyde payghambardyng sahabalary (serikteri) arqyly ózderin Hz.Payghambargha "genetikalyq" túrghydan baylanady. Búl týsinikten de eski týrkilik dýniyetanymdaghy ústyndardy, kategoriyalardy kóruge bolady. Áytpese, músylman bolu, qan, tek, genge emes, ruhqa baylanysty ekendigin o basta Qúran mәlimdegen bolatyn. Kók-Tәnirding ómirdegi kórinisi bolyp tabylatyn "qút" Allanyng syiy boldy. Tәnirding búiryghy - jarlyq bolsa, Allanyng shapaghatpen keshirimdiligine ainaldy. Islamdy qabyldauda, aqyret seniminin, әsirese tamúqtyng (tozaq) qorqynysh psihologiyasynyng óte ýlken yqpaly bolghandyghyn aita ketken jón. Dәruishter kóshpeliler arasynda islamdy jaida, jihadtyng sauaby, júmaqtyng syiynan kóri, adamnyng kýnәsi men onyng nәtiyjesinde tozaqta kóretin azaby mәselesin basa kórsetken.

Islamnyng alghashqy taralu dәuirinde ribattar shekaralyq qalqan yaghni, "kishi jihad (soghys)" qyzmetin atqarsa, keyinnen shekaradan ishki aimaqqa ainalghanda "úly jihad" yaghni, adam nәpsisin  tәrbiyelenumen ainalysqan sufiylerding tekkesi retinde diny sopylyq tәlim-tәrbie ortalyghyna ainalghan. XI-shy ghasyrlarda ribat eski maghynasyn joghaltyp, medrese, mektep, tekkeni bildiretin sufiylik diny úghymda qoldanyla bastady. Óitkeni, osy ghasyrlarda dindi "kishi jihad" arqyly emes, "úly jihad" yaghni, adamnyng kónilin, ruhany әlemin jaulaudy maqsat etken sopylyq dýniyetanymdyq aghymnyng tariqattar kezeni bastalghan bolatyn. Osy ghasyrda Maverannahrda on mynnan astam ribattar men zauiyalardyng bolghandyghyn Ibn Halliqannyng risalasy da quattaydy. Týrikter arasynda sopylyq dýniyetanymnyng tariqattar dәuirining "alghash esigin ashu" qúbylysy tarihymyzda Qoja Ahmet Iassauy atymen tanbalanghandyghy mәlim. Iassauy tariqaty onyng ilimining qalyptasu prosesin aiqyndaytyn negizgi kórsetkish bolyp tabylady.

Isfidjab qalasy Iassauy dýniyege kelmey túryp, 100-150 jyl búryn islamdy qabyldaghan bolatyn. Búl topyraqtar halifa Mughtasim (833-842) dәuirinde islammen tanys bolyp, Samaniyler (819-1005) kezinde músylman boldy. 960 jyldary Shash pen Farab (Otyrar) arasyndaghy 200-ge juyq auyl islamdy qabyldasa, H- ghasyrdyng birinshi jartysyna qaray Qashghar men Balasaghún aimaghy Islam dinin qabyldaghan bolatyn. Isfidjab pen Yasy (qazaqtar Asa, Jasa da degen) qalalary da osy kezenderde islam halifaty qúramyna kirdi.

Iassauy dýniyege kelgen kezen, Abbasy halifatynyng sayasy biyligi ydyraghanymen, ruhany yqpalynan ajyramaghan dәuiri bolatyn. Islam halifatynyng biyligi nәtiyjesinde Siriya, Mysyr, Soltýstik Afrika, Ispaniya, Edil boyy, Shyghys Týrkistan, Shyghys Aziya, Ýndistan, Iran-Sasany topyraqtaryna islam dini keninen tanylghan bolatyn. Islam dinining osy aimaqtardaghy jergilikti әrtýrli ruhaniy-zattyq qúndylyqtargha ie halyqtardyng dýniyetanymdyq- mәdeny qabattarymen  bite qaynasyp taralghanyn aituymyz kerek. Qúran men Hadis negizinde qalyptasqan Islam mәdeniyeti ózining jayyluy kezinde әrtýrli dýniyetanymdyq mәdeny qabattardaghy halyqtardyng qúndylyqtary arqyly birtútas islam órkeniyeti retinde quatty damu, janghyru satysyna jetti. Osylaysha, islam tek  bir últtyng ghana emes, islamdy qabyldaghan últtardyng mәdeniy-dýniyetanymdyq ýlesimen ortaq din hәline kelse, islam órkeniyeti de uniyversaldyq órkeniyet satysyna kóterildi. Mine, dәstýrli týrkilik dýniyetanymnyng ózindik erekshelikteri de uniyversaldyq islam órkeniyetining qalyptasuyndaghy jabdyq retinde qalyp qoymay, jana islam dini negizinde somdalyp, ruhany birlik dengeyinde ózindik týrik-islam mәdeniyeti men órkeniyet kókjiyegin asha bildi.

XI-XII ghasyrlardaghy Týrkistan, Syr boyy Iasauiyding bilim aluy ayasy,  ósken ortasynyng sol kezdegi tarihiy-әleumettik jaghdayyna keler bolsaq, búl mәselede de naqty derekterge qaraghanda, jarym jartylay aitylghan joramaldar men boljamdar ýiindisine tap bolasyz. Áriyne, sol kezdegi týrikter ornalasqan jerlerde yaghni, Otyrar, Isfidjab, Balasaghún, Yasy, Sabran (Sauran), Syghanaq, Shash, Sýtkent, Jend, Vesiyj, Kudur, Shilji, Otluk, Ózkent t.b. Maverannahr qalalaryndaghy arab  jaulaushylary men missionerlerining (dainderinin) әreketteri IH ghasyrlarda sayasy sipat alghan bolsa, H ghasyrdan bastap týbegeyli islamdyq ilimderding damuy baghytynda tәlim-tәrbiyelik ordalardyn-medrese, tekkelerding ornyghuymen birge qoghamdyq, islamdyq, ruhaniyattyq, ahlaqy prinsipteri men birge ekonomika men saudanyng damuyna negizdelgen jana memlekettik sipattaghy jýieler qalyptasa bastady. Árbir memleketterde, qala, qorghandarda, eldi mekenderde meshitter, medreseler men tekkeler boy kóterdi. Qogham islamdyq sharighat (zandyq qaghidalar jýiesi) negizinde rettelip, әleumettik, etiko-psihologiyalyq, ekonomikalyq qarym-qatynas ornygha bastady. Qarahan әuletining biyligine qaraghan sol kezdegi Maverannahr qalalary-músylmandar jәne músylman emesterge (ghayry muslimiyn) bólindi. Músylman emester jizya (músylman emesterding salyghy)  tóleytin bolsa, músylmandar zeket beru arqyly qoghamdaghy adamdardyng әleumettik әl-auqaty jaghynan tepe-tendik pen ózara demeudi, beybit ómir men diny bauyrlastyqty qalyptastyrdy. Jer, egin salyghy-vakuftyq (fond-qorlar) jýielermen rettelip otyrdy.

Qarahan memleketi túsynda mәdeniyet pen oi-sananyng tolqyndanyp, bilim men ghylymnyng islamdyq ruhta órlep túrghan renesseans dәuiri. Qashghar, Balasaghun, Ózkent qalalaryndaghy medreseler islamdyq ghylymdardy týrikterding arasyna jayyp, mufassirler (dindi týsindirushiler), muhaddister (hadisshiler), fakihter (islamdyq pravotanushylar), muarrihter (tarihshylar), mantiyq(iyn)shylar (tilshiler) men adibterding (әdebiyetshilerdin) ósip jetiluine yqpal etti. Qarahan memleketi túsynda alghash Qúran (audarmalary) tәrjimeleri men týsindirmeleri jasalyp, әsirese fiyqh (qúqyqtanu) salasynda hanafy fiyqhynyng Sarahsi, Bazdaui, Dabusy men Marginany siyaqty ókilderi arqasynda týrikterding hanafy mazhabynan oryn aluyna әser etti. H ghasyr ortasynda Qúran týrikshege audarylghan. Alghash qúran audarmalary dәstýrli týrkilik dini men nanymy túrghysynan óte manyzdy. Óitkeni, qúrandaghy diny arabsha úghymdar týrikshe berilgen. Mysaly: Alla-Tәniri, sәjde-jýginu, ghibadat-tabynu, aqyrette esep beru kýnine-kóne kýn, Shaytan-Jek (yak)-"jek-súryn", jalmu-jalbaghay-siqyr, kýnә-jazyq, ókinu-tәube ruh-tóz, tin, payghambar-yalvash, jennet-újmaq-(júmaq), jәhannәm-tamuq, qút-baqyt, yrys, baqyt berushi ruh jәne t.s.s. .

Biz býginge deyin jogharyda aty atalghan týrik danalaryn ghana bilip, zertteu obektisi retinde qanaghat qylyp jýrmiz. Al, "Qarahan biyligi kezindegi islam ghylymy" boyynsha zertteu jýrgizgen Yusuf Ziya Kabakchy Qarahan kezininde tek qana islam fiyqhy(qúqy) boyynsha ýsh jýzge juyq týrik ghúlamalarynyng bolghandyghyn jәne olardyng ýsh jýz eluden astam enbek qaldyrghanyn, aty jónderin, kitaptarynyng tizimin jýielep jazyp, oghan qosa týrli elderdegi arhivterden ózining tek qana islam fiyqhyna qatysty qoljazbalardy ghana terip alghandyghyn aitady. Búdan týrkilik dýniyetanymnyng alghashqy islamdyq kezeni ózining zertteushilerin kýtip otyr degen qorytyndy shygharugha bolady.

Al bauyrlar! Men óz tarapymnan kelip týsken saualdargha, zerttep, qolymdaghy derekter negizinde jauaptarymdy aittym. Kezek sizderdiki, qazaq qalay músylman boldy degen taqyrypta izdenip kórinizder. Aldarynnan jarylqasyn! Jalpy súraqtardyng deni, dialektikalyq tartystan kóri, tanymdyq,  jamaghattyq psihologiyagha boy aldyrghan jastarymyzdyng diny sanasy men tanymynan habar beredi. Búl turaly keyin saraptama jasap ózderinizben bólisermin, Qúday qalasa. Ghylym sheksiz, jana derekter tabylghan sayyn onyng qabattary men tújyrymdary da soghan say ózgerip otyrady. Diny tarihymyzdy, diny tәjiriybemizdi diny dogmamen shatastyrugha bolmaydy. Sebebi, din men dәstýr ekeui ajyraghysyz bite qaynasyp, últtyq bolmysqa ainalghan. Al, dәstýrdi dinmen shatastyryp, birinshisin joqqa shygharyp, diny tanymnan ajyrap qalmanyzdar. Onda qazaqy bolmystan ajyrap qalghan, jahandyq ýderiste tamyrsyz qanbaq siyaqty boluymyz mýmkin, osydan saqtanayyq, aghayyn!

Uaqyt bolyp jatsa, aldaghy uaqytta, bilimim jetkenshe, әrbir súraqtarynyzgha erinbey jauap beruge tyrysamyn. dosaykz&mail.ru

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