Sapabek Ásip — jazushy, Jazushylar odaghy janynan qúrylghan "Jer jәne qazaq taghdyry" komissiyasynyng tóraghasy. Jerding jekemenshikke ótuine jan-tәnimen qarsylyq tanytyp, Parlament qabyrghasynda "Jer kodeksi" talqylanyp jatqan tústa búl zang jobasyna biraz ontayly baptyng enuine múryndyq bolghan. Jer satyluyna ókpeli aghamyz biyik minberding biyik marapattarynan da bas tartqan eken. Bizding jazushymen әngimemiz osy jәne basqa da jaghdayattar tónireginde órbidi.
— Qazaqstannyng әrbir azamatynyn, onyng ishinde ziyaly qauym ókilderinin, әsirese, jazushylardyng әrqaysysynyng tәuelsizdikti bayandy etuge qosatyn mindetteri bar. Tәuelsizdikting talaptary bar. Ol talaptyng barlyghyn Ýkimet bile beredi dep aitugha bolmaydy. Ziyaly qauym ókilderin әsirese, Shyghys elderinde әdette ol býkil halyqtyng aqyl-oyy, sanasy dep baghalaydy. Men ol jayynda jazghan maqalalarymda atap óttim. Árkim ózining shama-sharqynsha ýles qosuy kerek. Bireu ónerdi, bireu ghylymdy órkendetuge ýles qosady. Mening maqsatym, qazaqtyng otarshyldyq jyldary ketken esesin, yaghny onyng patsha ýkimeti ozbyrlyqpen tartyp alghan eng qúnarly 45 million desyatina jerin, Kenes ýkimeti jyldarynda, yaghny tyng iygeru jyldarynda ketken 25 million desyatina jerin qazaqtyng ózine qaytaru bolatyn. Áriyne, búl jerlerding bәrin birdey qaytaru mýmkin emes. Biraq, degenmen de soghan talap jasap, eng bolmaghanda, basqa últ ókilderi otyrghan aimaqtardan qonys shygharyp, qazaqtardy qonystandyrugha bolatyn edi. Búl mening aldyma qoyghan birinshi mәselem. Ol ýshin istegen júmystarym da kóp boldy. "Qazaq qasireti" degen tetralogiya da jazdym. Onyng ýsheuin shyghardym. Birinshi kitap "Qazaq qasireti" 1994 jyly shyqty, onda qazaqtyng jerin tartyp alu qay kezde bastalyp, qalay jýrgizilgeni, halyqtyng sanasyna búl prosess qalay әser etti.
Patsha ókimetining 1861 jylghy reformasynan keyin Reseyde 140 million desyatina qúnarly jer bar eken. Reformadan keyin 140 million desyatina jerding 70 milliony 30 myng pomeshikting menshiginde qalady. Qalghan 70 milliony on million krestiyan-mújyqtyng menshiginde. Endi qalghan mújyqtardy qalay jerge ornalastyru kerek? Sondyqtan shetki aimaqtargha mújyqtardy kóshiru kerek bolghan. Shoqan Uәlihanovtyng dosy bolghan Gerasim Kolpakovskiy degen general 1868 jyly úiymdastyrylghan Jetisu oblysynyng әskeriy-gubernatory bolyp taghayyndalghan song Reseyden mújyqtardy kóshiru mәselesin qolgha alghan. 1868 jyly Jetisu boyynan, Alatau bókterinen 81 uchastok dayyndap, poselka salghyzghan. Krestiyandardy kóshiru turaly zang jobasyn dayyndaghan. "Kóshken adamdy ókimet kýshimen kóshirip әkelu kerek. Ýy iyesine 100 somnan, әieline, әke-sheshesine 50 somnan, balalaryna 25 somnan aqsha beru kerek" delingen zanda. Búnyng maghynasy analar mal maldanyp, jan jandanyp ketsin degen úghym ghoy. 15 jyl boyy әskerden, 15 jyl boyy alym-salyqtan bosatqan. Erkek kindiktige 30 desyatinadan jer bergen. Ol kezde 1868 jyly bәigi aty 10 som bolghan, mine, osynday qamqorlyq jasaghan. General Kolpakovsiy sol isimen býkil Patsha ókimeti tarihynda da, KSRO tarihynda da qaldy.
Mening birinshi maqsatym — shól dalalarda Tantal azabyn shegip jýrgen beybaqtardy qúnarly aimaqtargha qonystandyru edi. Ony jaza-jaza men qalamymdy tozdyrdym. Ayta-ayta tilim jauyr boldy, biraq Ýkimet qúlaq aspady. 1993-2003 jyldar aralyghynda1,200 million qazaq óz elimizding ishinde bosyp ketti, syrtqa 300 mynday qazaq kóship ketti. Búlardyng bireui memleketten bir tiyn alghan joq. Al shyghyny shash etekten. Búlardyng kóbi ómir sýru dengeyi tómen, sharuashylyghy qúldyraghan 72 audannyng adamdary. Búl aimaqty ghylym tilinde "tabighat jaghdayy adam kýn kórisine qolaysyz aimaqtar jәne meylinshe qolaysyz aimaqtar" dep ataydy. Sodan kóshken sormandaylar bir tiyn da alghan joq. Kóship barghan jerinen últaraqtay jer de bergen joq. 1993-2003 jyldar aralyghynda Almaty qalasyna 217 myng qazaq kóship kelgen, sonyng 117 myny kýn kóre almay qayta kóship ketken. Men "Otarshyldyq pen tәuelsizdik sabaqtastyghy" degen maqala jazdym. Otarshyldyq pen tәuelsizdik ekeuining arasy aspan men jerdey emes pe, onda qanday sabaqtastyq boluy mýmkin. Patsha ókimeti mújyqtardy kóshirip әkelgende qazaqtyng qystaularyn búzyp kóshirgen, qayda barsang onda bar dep. Mynau da sol siyaqty.
Ekinshi talabym — mýgedekterge qatysty. Anau Balqashtyng shól dalasyndaghy mýgedekter bar. Almaty qalasyndaghy mýgedekter ýiining janyndaghy baqshasyna egin egip, qystyq tamaghyn tauyp alady. Al, shól jәne shóleyt aimaqta túratyn mýgedekter basqalardan zeynetaqyny eki-ýsh ese kóp aluy kerek. Eger tabighattyng әdildigine qaraytyn bolsaq, topyraghyna, suyna, әrbir adamnyng qúqyghy birdey. Men osyghan baylanysty zang jobasyn dayyndap bergenmin. Parlament mening talaptarymdy kerek qylghan joq, qabyldamay tastady. Taghy bir dýniyejýzilik tәjiriybede qoldanylyp jýrgen mәsele — janaghy shól dalalardan kóshem degen adamdardy kóshirip, aspannan jauatyn janbyry joq, jerinde egin shóp shyghatyn qúnarly qyrtysy joq, ishetin nәrli suy joq, jolynyng moyny qashyq sormandaylardyng qúqyghyn tenestiru ýshin olargha azdy kópti tabysynyng ýstine 250-300% mólsherinde ótemaqy beredi. Mysal ýshin Kanadada, AQSh-ta, Avstraliyada jәne basqa jerlerde qazirgi uaqytta rezervasiyada tuyp, óskenderge osynday tólemaqy tóleydi. Al bizding rezervasiyadaghy (Men shól jәne shóleyt aimaqtardy rezervasiya dep atap jýrmin) túrghyndargha da osylay tóleu kerek. Ásirese, bayyrghy túrghyn halyqtargha, sonda bizding qazaqtyng qarny toyyp, auru-syrqauy azayady.
Amangeldi Aytaly degen deputattyng "Últ taghdyry" degen kitaby bar. Onda mynaday derek bar: "Qazaqstanda túratyn orys erkekterimen salystyrghanda, qazaq erkekterining ómir jasy 2,5 jylgha qysqa, qazaq әielderining jasy orys әielderimen salystyrghanda 7 jylgha qysqa. Qazaqstanda tughan 1000 qazaq sәbiyining 30-y shetinep ketedi. Al orystarda búl kórsetkish 21 ghana". Mine sol sebepten men maghan berilgen «Qúrmet» ordeninen de bas tartyp otyrmyn.
— IYә, men osy sebepterden alghan joqpyn. Men múny keshe ghana aitqan joqpyn. 1989 jyly senzura joyyldy, sodan beri men qaqsap aityp kele jatyrmyn. Ekinshi kitabymnyng aty "Qaterli dert, qaljyraghan halyq", búnda da qazaqtyng densaulyq jaghdayyn týgendep jazdym-au biraz. HIH ghasyrda Karl Marks "Tuberkulez — kapitalizmning eng jiyirkenishti qúbylysy" degendi aityp ketken. Sovet ókimeti tuberkulezdi jazyp shygharugha jaqyn qaldy. Qazaqstanda qazaqtardyng ýles salmaghy 29% bolyp túrghanda da, 30-45% kezinde de tuberkulezben auyrghandardyng 90%-y qazaq bolatyn. 1999 jyly "Qazaq Tantal azabynan qaytse qútylady?" degen maqala jazdym. Búl aurumen týrmedegiler auyrady, sosyn qazaq auyrady. Búdan ótken qorlyq bola ma?
— Búnyng sebebi nede?
— Sebebi qazaqtyng túrmysy nashar. Qazaq tamaqqa jarymaydy, kiyimge jarymaydy, ystyqqa kýiedi, suyqqa tonady.
Mine, men qazaqtyng mýddesin qorghau ýshin aramter bolyp eshtene tyndyra almaghandyqtan, mening quanatyn jayym joq. Jazushylar mereytoyyn ótkizip, "men baqyttymyn" dep sayrap jatady. Al kerisinshe, "men baqytsyz jazushymyn". Men óitkeni moynyma auyr mindet alghanmyn. Dәl mendey búl mәseleni kóterip jýrgen adam joq. Ýshinshi kitabymnyng aty "Tantalovye muky stepi" dep atalady.
— Halyq arasynda ziyaly qauymgha degen ókpe kóp. Ziyaly qauym nege ýnsiz? Qazaq mәselesi әli sheshimin tapqan joq. Biraq ziyaly qauym oghan bas auyrta qoyatyn emes. Nege?
— Ziyaly qauymgha men de ókpelimin. Ziyaly qauym auzynda duasy, el-júrtqa abyroyy bar, sózin tyndata alatyn adamdar. Últtyq mәseleni kótere almaghany ýshin qazaq ziyalylaryna men de ókpelimin. Súltanmahmúttyng "Adasqan ómir" dastanynda mynaday óleng joldary bar:
"Ógizdey en mayada shópke toyyp,
Tamaq kóp dep qayghynyng bәrin joyyp.
Artyq semirip, baqyt sol dep,
Jýreyin be basqa oidyng bәrin qoyyp".
Mening bayqauymsha, tamaghy toq, kóilegi kók, otyrghan ýii jayly, túraqty tabysy bar, el-júrtqa, joghary jaqqa bedeli bar azamattar artyq aitudan qaymyghady. Men osylay desem, bedelime núqsan kele me dep qorqady. Mysaly ýshin, aitugha bolatyn nәrse mynau Ghylym akademiyasynyng qazirgi jay-kýiin biletin shygharsyn. Búryn Ghylym akademiyasyna arnayy budjetten qarjy bólip, kәdimgi memleketik mekeme sanalyp, 24-25 instituty bolatyn. Ghylymdaghy adamdardyng enbekaqysy joghary edi. Men sol akademiyanyng qúramynda istedim. "Qazaq-sovet ensiklopediyasy" degen ýlken basylym qúryldy. 15 tom shyghardyq. Sol kezde men bas redaktordyng birinshi orynbasary boldym. Mening ailyq enbekaqym 400 som bolatyn. Al sol kezde I-kategoriyadaghy ministrler 500 som alatyn da, III-kategoriyadaghy ministr 320 som alatyn. Sonda mening enbekaqym ministrmen qaraylas boldy. Ghylym kandidattary men doktorlarynyng ailyghy búdan da joghary edi. Sol akademiyany qoghamdyq negizde qúrugha akademikter óz qoldarynan Qauly shygharyp berdi. Al, býgin bir top ghylym kandidaty "Sәtbaev ashqan Ghylym akademiyasynyng býgingi jayy tolghandyrady" degen maqala da jazady.
Bizding Ýkimetting kredosy: "óz kýnindi ózing kór". Eger "óz kýnindi ózing kóretin bolsan" Ýkimetting qajeti qansha? Ýkimet jayynda aitqan Leninning jaqsy-jaqsy oilary bar. "Memleket — teli-tentekti tiyp, halyqty basqaryp otyratyn shoqpar" degen ol. Shoqpar úry-qarylargha, jemqorlargha júmsalady. Qoghamnyng baylyghy qolynda qúryghy bar malshy men soqasy bar eginshining enbegimen qorghalady. Memleketting maqsaty — solardyng enbegin qorghau.
— Sonda, agha, Siz qazirgi tәuelsiz Qazaqstannan góri, Kenes Odaghy artyq edi degendi aitqynyz kelip otyr ma?
— Jo-joq. Men әuelden tәuelsizdik jaghyndaghy adammyn. Qolymyz óz auzymyzgha jetip jatqan zamanda halyqqa sol Kenes Odaghy kezindegidey mýmkindikti nege jasamaymyz? Meni ashyndyratyny osy. Basqany bylay qoyghanda, Mashkevich, Ibragimov, Shodiyev ýsheuining tabysy jylyna milliard dollardan ainalyp túr.
— Jalpy, tәuelsizdik Qazaqstangha ne berdi dep oilaysyz?
— Tәuelsizdikting Qazaqstangha bergeni — tәuelsiz el atanghany. Al, shyn mәnisinde pysyqtardyng bangyna mýmkindik ashty. Lakshmy Mittal Qaraghandynyng kómir basseynin 220 million dollargha satyp aldy. Dәl sonday kómir basseynin basqa jerlerde 4,5 milliard dollargha satqan. Su tegin alghan. Qazir 98% aksiya sonyki. Al, ómir boyy shahtanyng qara júmysyn atqaryp kele jatqan Qaraghandy shahterlary nebәri 0,2% aksiyagha ie eken. "Kazahskaya pravda" degen gazette men "Neokolonizm bezchelovecheskogo lisa" degen maqala jazdym. Búny qazaqsha "Adamy betsiz jana otarshyldyq" deuge bolady.
Manghystaudaghy "Qarajambasmúnaydyn" qojasy negizi indoneziyalyq, Kanadada tuyp-ósken, qazir Beligiyada túrady. Ózi katoliyk, ata-babasy músylman bolghan adam. Ózi anda-sanda ghana kelip ketedi. Júmyskerlerine әleumettik jaghday jasauy — tura Kenes Odaghyndaghyday. Qazir 3100 adam júmys isteydi. Sonyng ortasha ailyghy — 87 myng tenge. Al, ózining jyldyq tabysy — 156 million dollar. Mine, bizdegi sheteldik investorlardyng jaghdayy. "Qarajambasmúnay" sekildi sheteldik kompaniyalar bizde ondap sanalady. Men tek bir mysaldy ghana aityp otyrmyn. Sheteldikterdi osynsha tayrandatyp qoyghan son, qazaq qaydan onady?
Tәuelsizdikti biz moralidyq túrghydan aldyq. Al ekonomikalyq jaghyna kelgende, sheteldik investorlargha tәueldimiz. Olardan artylghany sheneunikterimiz ben qoltuma baylarymyzgha qyzmet etip jatyr. Qara halyqqa eshtene joq.
— Ol komissiyanyng tóraghasy men. Mýsheleri — 27 adamnan túrady. Osy mýshelerimizding 4-5-eui o dýniyelik bolyp ketti. Bizding júmys isteuge bir qiynshylyghymyz bar. Ol — qarajat mәselesi.
Bizding júmysymyz kóp jaghdayda staqandaghy dauyl siyaqty bolyp ketedi. Staqandaghy dauyldyng manaygha qansha әseri bar. Júmysymyzdyng dúrys jýrui ýshin qarjylyq kómek kerek. Joghary, tómen baryp, júmystyng jýruine múryndyq boluymyz kerek. Olardyng ishinde Astanagha jylyna bir-eki ret baryp kelip jýrgen men ghana. Qalghandarynyng aqshasy joq. Biz әu basta dәulettiler qol úshyn sozady dep sengenbiz. Biraq, bireui manayyna jolatqan joq. Sosyn mekemelerdi jaghaladym. "Qazaqstan mektebi" jurnalynyng bas redaktory Sayrash Ábishqyzy degen apang bar, sol maghan bir adamyn is-sapargha jiberuge kómektesti. Basqa eshkimnen men kómek algham joq.
— Jer satu turaly zang qabyldanyp ketkeli de ýsh jyldyng jýzi. Jer qazir shonjarlardyng iygiligine ainaluda. Al, sizding jogharydaghy komissiyanyzdyng endigi ózektiligi nede, qanday júmys atqarasyzdar?
— Qazir qazaqtyng bilmestigining qyrsyghynan qazaqtyng ózine qarsy "ghasyr qylmysy" jasalyp jatyr. Ol qylmys — jerdi satu.
Bizding bir mýshemiz Qúral Toqmyrzin degen aghang Oiylgha baryp kelip, "Kókjar jәrmenkesi" degen maqala jazdy. Onda sol Oiyl audanynyng qazirgi jaghdayy tútastay әngime bolady. Oiyl joldan alys 300 shaqyrymday jer, kómirding bir tonnasy 10 myng tenge. Qazir jastardyng óliminen, shal-kempirding ólimi әldeqayda qayghyly bolyp barady. Sebebi olar ólgen kýni bala-shaghanyng yryzdyghy toqtaydy.
Almatydaghy Jetisu audanyndaghy 29 ýidi bulidozermen kýrep tastaghanyn keshe teledidardan kórsetti. Búnyng bәri jer satylghannan keyin tuyndap jatqan daular. Biz búnymen kýresuimiz kerek.
— Qazaqqa auyl keregi joq degen pikirlerdi jii esty bastadyq. Órkeniyetti elderde auyl halqy 6-7%-dy ghana qúraydy, qalghandary qalada tirlik etedi desedi. Osyghan kelisesiz be?
— Egerde, qalagha kelip, qalada óndiris oryndaryn ashyp, kóship kelushilerge jaghday jasalsa, men búl iydeyagha qarsy emespin. Mening qarsylyghym qaladan auylgha kelgenderge eshqanday janashyrlyq jasalmaghandyghy. Jalpy, qalanyng da mýmkinshiligin paydalanu kerek. Qazirgi uaqytta bizding óz sýtimiz joq. Kóbinese shetten sýt taghamdaryn aldyramyz. Jylyna syrttan 29-30 myng tonna sýt kiredi eken. Qalagha kelu ýshin jaghday jasalynghany jón. Qaghanaghymyz qarq, saghanaghymyz sarq ómir sýretin jayymyz bar. Rudnyidyng temiri, Qaraghandynyng kómiri, Arqalyqtyng aluminiyi, Atyraudyng múnayy — búdan týsip jatqan baylyqtyng bәri qayda? Bizde jylyna 60 million tonna múnay óndiriledi eken. Sonyng 10 milliongha jeter-jetpesin ózimizding kompaniya "QazMúnayGaz" óndiredi. Qalghandary shetke ketip jatyr.
— Qazirgi Parlamentting ókilettigi sizding kónilinizden shygha ma? Búlar osy shetke ketip jatqan baylyqty auyzdyqtay alatyn mýmkindigi bar ma?
— Biylikting ózi atqarushy biylik — ol Preziydent jәne Ýkimet. Zang shygharushy biylik degen bar, ol — Parlament. Qay qoghamdy alyp kórseniz de baqylaushylyq qyzmet atqaratyn tarmaghy boluy kerek. Zang jýzinde ony bizde Parlament atqaruy kerek edi. Biraq qazir onda iynening jasuynday baqylaushylyq qyzmeti joq. Budjetting qaydan kep, qayda ketkenin bilmeydi. Bekitip bergen budjetin baqylaugha qúqyghy joq. Búl — bir, ekinshiden, dayyndap bergen zanynyng oryndaluyn qadaghalaytyn qúqyq taghy joq.
Men Parlamentte Jer mәselesi qaralyp jatqanda deputattarmen qoyan-qoltyq júmys istegen adammyn. Sol kezde "Deputattar Shәmsha Berkimbaeva men Onalbek Sapiyevtey bolsyn" degen maqala da jazdym. Sol eki deputattyng qoldauymen qazirgi "Jer kodeksinin" Qazaqstan Respublikasynyng jer qory degen I babynyng 3-tarmaghynda "Qazaqstan jerining aumaghy tabighat jaghdayyna baylanysty, on aimaqqa bólinedi" degen anyqtama bar. Ol bizding jer komissiyasynyng dayyndaghan úsynysy bolatyn. Sol mening úsynysymdy Mәjilis qoldaghanymen, ótkize almay, Senatqa barghan kezde senatorlar Shәmsha Berkimbaeva men Onalbek Sapiyev, Zәuresh Battalova, Jandar Kәribayúly qoldaghan. Solardyng tabandy aitysynyng arqasynda, mening úsynysym ótti. Qazir halyqqa shyn jany ashityn Parlament bolatyn bolsa, sol zangha sýienip, men aitqan jaghdaydyng bәrin jasaugha bolar edi. Zandyq negiz bar. Jer kodeksinde arnayy eki sanat boluy kerek. Ol — shóleyt jәne shóldi jerler. Osy ekeuin men ótkize almadym. Jer kodeksinde 180 million gektar jer kirmey qaldy. Tek I baptyng 3-tarmaghynda ghana atalyp ótkeni bolmasa.
— Jer kodeksinde jalpy Qazaqstan azamattaryna 10 sotyq jerdi tegin iyelenuine bolady dep jazylghan siyaqty edi. Endeshe Almaty manyndaghy qazaqtargha nege jer berilmeydi? Sonday-aq, oralmandar kelip jatyr. Kvotamen kelgenderine jaraydy qolyna bir-eki tiynyn ústatyp jatyr, mardymsyz bolsa da, al kvotadan tys kelgenderge nege jer beru mәselesi eskerilmeydi?
— Men búl mәsele jayynda 2000 jyly Parlamentte 15 myng tenge ailyq alyp júmys istegenmin. Sonda Mihail Troshihin degen deputat mening oralmandar jayynda jasaghan úsynysymdy qoldaghan edi. Árbir Qazaqstan azamaty ýy qúrylysyn salu ýshin 10 sotyq jer, sayajay salu ýshin 12 sotyq jerdi tegin alugha qúqyly. Búl zang ózgertilgen joq. Biraq, jer berilip te jatqan joq kórinedi. Biz aitamyz, al oryndau — biylikting qolynda. Ózge emes zang talaptary oryndalyp jatsa qanekiy.
— Rahmet!
Abai.kz
