Ontýstik Qazaqstan oblysy Saryaghash audanynda bolghan oqighanyng sebebi, osy jaghdaygha qatysty biylikting ústanymy, taghy da basqa qoghamdyq mәselelerge belgili sayasattanushy Aydos SARYM myrza caraptama jasady.

– Aydos myrza, qalay oilaysyz: Saryaghash oqighasyna qatysty jaghdayattardyng memlekettik basylymdarda aitylmauynyng sebebi nede?

– Kózge kórinip túrghan eki sebebi bar siyaqty. Bizding biylikting jaltaqtyq sayasatyna aitar uәjim joq: bolyp jatqan jaghdaydy jasyryp, әdettegi ózinen-ózi ýreylengen әreketinen tughan mәsele dep sanaymyn. Ontýstik ónirdegi internet baylanysy búghattalyp, úyaly baylanysqa tosqauyl qoyyluy jaghdaydyng ushyqqanyn kórsetip otyr.

Ekinshiden, Saryaghashtaghy oqigha bolghan kýni assambleyanyng 20 jyldyghy jer-jerde dýrkirep atalyp ótip jatty. Sol kýni biraz BAQ-ty aqtaryp shyqsam, elimizde dýbirlegen toy, biylik tarmaqtarynyng eshqaysysynyng da ontýstikte ne bolyp jatqanymen isi bolmady. Tipti oqigha bolghannan keyin de basyn qatyryp otyrghan eshkimdi bayqamadyq.

– Óziniz aityp otyrghanday, Saryaghash oqighasy bolghan kýnning erteninde býkil Qazaqstan boyynsha preziydent jariya etken Assambleya jylynyng ashylu rәsimi ótti. Bәlkim, osy saltanattyng sәnin ketirmeu ýshin, últ arazdyghy mәselesin býrkep qalu qajet bolghan shyghar?

– Áriyne, saltanattyng syiqyn kimning búzghysy keledi? Elding ishindegi osy mәselege baylanysty «últaralyq» degen termin týsinikti qabyldaghym kelmeydi: etnosaralyq degenimiz dúrys bolar. Bizding memlekette bir ghana qazaq últy bar da, basqalary әrtýrli etnostar. Eldegi etnosaralyq jaghday jaman dep te, jaqsy dep te aita almaspyz. Elding ishindegi әleumettik tensizdik, kedeyshilik mәselesi túrghysynda eki adamnyng arasyndaghy tóbeleske, әrtýrli qylmystyq toptardyng arasyndaghy dauly mәselege etnosaralyq reng berilui yqtimal. Sebebi qoghamdy biriktiretin iydeya qalmady. Sondyqtan tuystyq, qangha tartu mәselesi aldynghy oryngha shyghyp bara jatyr. Kóshede júmyssyz bosyp jýrgen, kýnkórisi mýshkil jaghdaygha ainalghan, nesiyesin tóley almay, qaryzgha belshesinen batqan qanshama qazaq bar? Kerisinshe, ózge etnostardyng әleumettik jaghdayyna mýmkindik jasalyp, qazaq japa shegip jatsa, osy oqighany әldekimder ózining mýddesine paydalanuy aidan anyq.

– Odan beri birneshe kýn ótti, eshbir memlekettik oryndar tiyisti dәrejede bagha berip, jaghdaydyng aldyn alu jóninde eshkim bastama kótermegeni ókinishti-aq...

– Álbette! Qaranyz: Qazaqstan halqynyng 54–56 payyzy osy ontýstik ónirdegi ýsh oblysty mekendeydi; aldaghy on bes jylda aimaq túrghyndarynyng sany bes milliongha kóbeyedi degen boljam bar. Olardyng bilim, enbek, biznes, densaulyq saqtau, ekonomika naryghyna keluining ózi biraz qiyndyqtar tuyndatuy mýmkin ekenine dau joq. Býgingi kýni qazaqtardy Arqagha qaray qonys audaru kerek degen úsynysty soltýstik ónirdegi shekaralyq dýrbelenning aldyn alu ghana emes, halqy tyghyz ornalasqan ontýstik ónir túrghyndarynyng túrmys jaghdayyn eskeru dep týsingenimiz jón. Respublika boyynsha resmy tirkeudegi júmyssyzdardyng ýshten bir bóligi – ontýstik oblystyng azamattary. Onyng syrtynda óz kýnin ózi kóretinderi, nauqandyq júmysqa jegiletinderin qossanyz – júmyssyzdardyng qalyng nópir kýshin kóresiz. Osy nópirding tolqyny kez kelgen uaqytta tosqauylgha boy bermeytin tasqyngha ainaluy mýmkin. Biylik jaudy syrttan izdep, ishtegi tútanyp jatqan shoqqa mәn bermeude. Qazaqstanda әldeqanday dýrbeleng oryn alar bolsa, onyng sebebin әleumettik jeliden izdep, oghan tosqauyl qonggha úmtylu – bos әureshilik. Áleumettik әdiletsizdikke narazy halyq bolmashy bir sebeppen ayaq astynan kóshege lap qoysa, biylikting basu aityp, qarsy túra alarlyq amaly bar ma?! Ótken ghasyrda 1917 jylghy Peterbordaghy tónkeris nannyng tapshylyghynan bastalghan edi. Ol zamanda internet joq, baylanys týri damymaghan kezeng bolsa, býgingi tanda habar alysyp, aqparat taratudyng mýmkindikteri mol. Qauip-qaterding auylyn alystan boljaudyng da zamany ótken siyaqty...

Sol sebepti Saryaghashtaghy oqigha әleumettik-ekonomikalyq mәsele túrghysynan qarap, zerttelui tiyis. Dәl býgin әleumettanushylar, ekonomister ontýstikke baryp, zertteu, saraptau isimen ainalysudy qolgha alsa, qúba-qúp bolar edi.

Ontýstiktegi aghayyndar jerdi emip ýirengender, ushyqqan mәselening týp-tórkini de osy jer dauyna qatysty órshude. Su mәselesi de sheshimin tappaghan. Jyl sanap adam sany kóbengde, suarmaly egistik jeri – kýnkóris kózi, әleumettik әdiletsizdikting de sebep-saldary osy jaghdaydan tuyndaytynyn biylik bilse de, bilmes keyip tanytyp otyr. Tәjikstan men Ózbekstan milliondaghan júmyssyzdaryn («gastarbayter») Resey men basqa da kórshiles elderge jiberip, mәselesin sheship otyr. BAQ betterin aqtaryp otyrghanda, tәjik, qyrghyz, ózbekting sayasatkerleri Reseydegi daghdarystyng kýshengine alandauly, óitkeni sol jaqqa ketken júmys kýshi elge oralatyn bolsa, júmyspen qamtu bas auyratyn sharuagha ainalatynyn týsinip otyr, nәtiyjesi el ishinde jana bir tónkeriske alyp kelmey me dep qauiptenude.

Qazaqstan da dәl osynday jaghdaygha tap bolyp otyr. Búryndary birneshe million ózbek, qyrghyz, tәjik Reseyde aqsha tauyp, jaldanyp jýr dep tabalaytyn edik qoy. Endi bizding de basymyzgha osynday kýn tuyp otyr.

– Jer-jerde auyq-auyq boy kórsetip qalatyn osynday últaralyq kiykiljing mәselesin býrkep qalumen biz búl problemadan qútylamyz dep oilaysyz ba? Mәselen, Jana jyldyng qarsanynda Shonjy auylynda da osynday últaralyq janjal bolghan eken. El ishi ol oqighadan da beyhabar...

– Óitkeni elimizde tәuelsiz aqparat taratatyn BAQ-tyng ayaghy túsauly. Der kezinde elge shynayy habar jetpeydi. Al ontýstikting ereksheligi sol – jergilikti túrghyndar úiymshyl, biylikke jaltaqtamay, óz ishinde sheshim qabyldap jatady. Biylikting qolynan kelmeytin sharuany ózderi sheshe alatyn jergilikti aqsaqaldar instituttary, dәstýrleri bar. Osynyng arqasynda kóptegen dauly mәselelerdi ózderi sheshedi. Biylikke jetispey jatqan mәsele – elge shyndyqty jetkize almaydy, el ishindegi dauly mәseleni qoghamnyng talqysyna salugha qúlyqsyzdyq tanytady, «ózim bilemge» salady.

Aqiqatty aitqan adamnyng auzyn jabady, aqparatty jetkizetin BAQ-ty qudalap, sottap, jauyp tynady, der kezinde aqparat taratushy sayttardy búghattaydy. Biylikting arsenalynda әdiletti jolmen sheshetin әreket, amal joq siyaqty. Ertengi kýni osynday qughyndau sharalary da shegine jetedi, sol kezde el ishinde qanday jaghday oryn alatynyn oilaudyng ózi qorqynyshty. El azamattary ashtyq jariyalap, óz-ózine qol júmsaugha deyin baryp jatyr. Ashyghu degen sharagha óz basym qarsymyn, óitkeni búl amalsyzdyqtan baratyn sayasy qadam, osynday әreketterding sany kóbeye berse, biylik nazar audarmaytyn bolsa, onda halyq basqa joldy tandaugha kirisedi. Ol tandau – kesek tasqa, otqa, qaru-jaraqqa kelip tirelse, ne bolmaq? Biylikting qoghammen sanaspau sayasatynyng ózi osy jaghdaygha apara jatyr.

– Qazaqstanda últtar men úlystar arasyndaghy tatulyqty qamtamasyz etuding alghy sharty qanday dep oilaysyz?

– Kez kelgen mәseleni sheshudegi kelisimnin, ymyranyng alghy sharty – shyndyq. Shyndyq arqyly talqylau, saraptau mәdeniyeti qalyptasady. Tipti ýsh adam karta oinau ýshin eng aldymen erejesin kelisip alady ghoy. Bireui – qaltasyna tapansha salyp, ekinshisi – qoynyna balta tyghyp, ýshinshisi – bir top «tentekterdi» qasyna jinap alsa, oiynnyng erejesi әdiletti bolmaytyny belgili ghoy. Biylik pen búqaranyng araqatynasy da osynday jaghdaygha úqsap bara jatqanday...

Qazaqstandaghy әr etnos óz-ózimen bolyp, oqshaulanuda. Juyrda qogham qayratkeri Saghat Jýsip aghamyzdyng әleumettik jelide ózimizge tanys bir orys jigitin «qazaqtan dosy joq adam» degenin oqyghan edim, shynynda da, býgingi tanda qazaqtan dosy joq adamnyng sany kóbeyip bara jatyr. Saryaghashtaghy, Shelektegi, Shonjydaghy jaghdaylargha zer salsaq, eldegi etnikalyq anklav degen mәsele sopang etip shygha keledi. Bir auyldy bir etnostyng mekendeui, ózining meshiti, ózining «mahallasy», onda Ata zannan tys instituttardyng әreketterining oryn aluy – ainalyp kelgende qauipti jaghday ekeni dausyz. Ártýrli etnostar óz auylynda osynday dәstýrmen ómir sýrip, belgili bir uaqytta oiyna kelgenin jasamasyna kim kepil bola alady?!

Qoghamnyng ishinde osy mәselege bayyppen qarap, salmaqty júmys jýrgize alatyn mekeme joqtyng qasy. Resmy biylik aityp jýrgendey, bizde 130-gha juyq últtyng ókilderi joq ekenin jaqsy bilemiz, mәdeny ortalyqtardyng belsendi tobynyng sany 30–40 qana bolady. Shyn mәninde, biylikting sayasatyna yqpal etedi degenderining sany 15-ten aspaydy. Eki chukcha, ýsh-tórt kavkazdyqty, t.b. birer etnosty últtardyng sanyna qosugha kelmeydi ghoy. Olar jekelegen adamdar, olargha eshkim de arnayy balabaqsha salyp, mektep ashyp bermesi anyq. Az degende elu mynnan astam adamy bar etnosty eldegi sayasatqa yqpal ete alatyn top dep sanaugha bolady. Elding mýddesi ýshin júmysqa tartu, el isine aralastyru – ol bizding azamattyghymyz, memleketshildigimiz ýshin syn. Alayda osy mәseleni týsindiruge tiyis assambleya aigha bata jasap otyr ma?

– Rasynda, Qazaqstan halqy assambleyasy osy túrghyda tiyanaqty sharua atqaryp otyr dep aita almaymyz. Tipti osy Ata zannan tys úiymnyng qyzmet auqymy arasynda qazaq mәselesi tapshy ekenin nemen týsindirer ediniz?

– Býgingi kýni assambleya – konstitusiyalyq zannamagha enip ketken úghym boldy. Eger osy túrghydan qaraytyn bolsaq, bir adam eldegi saylau nauqanynda eki ret dauys beru qúqyna ie bolyp otyr. Deputtardy saylau prosesinde osy qúqyqtyng búzylatyny anyq. Olar Qazaqstan azamattary bolghandyqtan, elding mýddesi túrghysynan oilaytyn bolsaq, artynda kýshi bar etnikalyq toptarmen sanasuy – memleketimiz ýshin qajetti sharua. Sondyqtan Qazaqstandy mekendeytin etnikalyq toptardy qazaqy sayasatqa, qazaqy mýddege, qazaq tilinin, mәdeniyetining mәselelerine aralastyruymyz kerek. Qoghamdyq sayasy oidy, tәjiriybeni, ýrdisterdi týbegeyli týrde ózgertudi qajet etetin qadamdar qajet. Osy túrghydan payymdaytyn bolsaq, assambleya ózine jýktelgen birde-bir mindetin atqaryp otyrghan joq.

– Qazaqtyng mýddesi esebinen basqa úlystargha jaghday jasau sayasaty mәseleni odan ary ushyqtyra týsui mýmkin be?

– Qoghamda osynday әngimening bar ekeni anyq, yaghny býgingi kýni biylik kóptegen mәseleni qazaqtyng esebinen jasap otyr. Búl әreketining qateligi jyl ótken sayyn biylikke ókpeli qazaqtardyng etnostargha qarsy narazylyghyn tudyryp otyr. Biylik ózining osynday әreketi arqyly qazaqtyng boyyna «mening namysymdy taptap, nesibemnen qaghyp otyrsyndar» degen týsinikti engizip qoydy. Assambleyanyng ainalasyndaghy etnostyq mәdeny ortalyqtardyng jetekshileri de jemqorlyqtyng auylynan alys ketken joq. Olar әkimderge, tipti preziydentting ózine tikeley kirip, biraz mýmkindikke qol jetkize alady. Ýkimet tarapynan bólinetin tenderdi iyelenuine jol ashyq. Eldi jaylaghan jemqorlyq túrghysynan alsaq, búl mәselede qazaqtargha kesiri tiymeydi dep, kim kepildik bere alady? Estuimizshe, preziydentting tikeley ókilimin degen jalghan kuәlik alyp, jalghandy jalpaghynan basyp jýrgender de osy etnostyq toptardyng basshylyghynda jýrgender eken... Assambleyanyng júmys tәsili týrli merekelik sharalar men konsertpen shektelui – osy organnyng shyn mәnindegi júmysyn tayazdatyp, joqqa shygharatyn synayly. Assambleya ýshin jana filosofiya qajet shyghar, ol qoghamnyng ishinde bolyp jatqan kez kelgen mәseleni talqylaytyn alangha ainaluy tiyis edi.

Qoghamnyng assambleyagha degen yntasy bolmasa, onda osy instituttyng qajettiligi joq, ekinshi jaghynan osy úiymnyng mýsheliginde jýrgen birde-bir etnos ókili qazaqtargha kelip, assambleyanyng kerek ekenin aityp, dәleldegen emes. Qazaqtargha úsynys jasap, әldeqanday bir mәseleni talqylaugha yntaly emestigin de bayqaymyz. Anda-sanda qazaq tilin ýiretetin kurs ashqandaryn ghana maqtan etedi. Tasada túryp, jaghdaydy baqylap otyrghannan góri, el ishine kelip, kelensiz jaghdaydy auyl, audan aqsaqaldarymen, el-júrtpen birge talqylap, mәmile jasap, resmy dengeyge deyin mәlimdeme jasaugha úmtylsa, kim qoy der edi?! Ózderimen-ózi otyrghan, memleket ishindegi memleketiniz – osy assambleya deuden basqa aitarymyz joq.

– Etnos ókili degende, keshe ghana ómirden ótken qazaq halqyna degen qúrmeti kýshti bolghan Gerolid Beligerding ýlgisi últaralyq tәrbiyening tendessiz taqyryby bolmas pa edi?

– Ger-agha imandy bolsyn, marqúm! Ger-agha naghyz qazaq edi ghoy! Shynyn aituymyz kerek, elding sayasi, mәdeni, әdeby ómirindegi orny bar erekshe túlgha. Qughyngha týsken últtyng ókili. Tabighatynan bitimger azamat edi. Ger-aghanyng artynda qalghan múrasyn keleshek úrpaq zertteytini aiqyn. Al býgingi tanda sayasy sahnagha jana úrpaq kele jatyr. Ger-aghanyng ereksheligi sol – ózi ómirden ótken son, onyng artynda biylikke, sayasy topqa, etnikalyq úiymdargha sózi ótetin salmaqty túlgha qalmaghan siyaqty. Eshkimning atyn atay alar emespin. Senim artar, elge sózi ótimdi túlghanyng joqtyghyn tragediya der edim.

Býgingi qazaq ziyalysynyng sózi az ghana qazaqqa ótimdi, qazaq biznesmenderining sózi ózining ainalasyndaghylargha ghana ótedi, qazaqtyng ishinen shyqqan belsendi degen azamattardyng ózi qazaqqa jiyirkene qaraytyn jaghdaygha jetti. Kýni keshe demokratiyalyq oppozisiyanyng qatarynda jýrgender biylikting soyylyn soghyp ketkeni sonshalyq, qisyngha kelmeytin sózderdi sandyraqtauda. Memlekettik emes úiymnyng soyylyn soghyp jýrip, endi solargha qarsy júmys istep jýrgender de bar. Qazaqstan degen elde túryp jatqan halyqty auzyna qaratatyn biregey túlghanyng joqtyghy – qasiret! Barsha buyngha qadiri bar sonday azamattyng biri – Ger-agha edi....

Kenestik iydeologiyadaghy halyqtar dostyghy degen úghymgha jabysa beremiz, eshuaqytta halyq pen halyq, memleket pen memleket dos bolmaydy, dostasatyn – adamdar. Biz sayasattaghy halyqtar dostyghyn adamdar dostyghyna qaray ózgertuimiz kerek. Adam bir-birine senim artqan kezde ghana memleket damidy, al býgingi kýni senim mәselesi daghdarysqa úshyraghan zamangha tap bolyp otyrmyz.

Áleumettik kapitaldyng basty tetigi – senim! Elde preziydenttik instituttan basqa dәstýrli institut joq, parlament, sot, polisiya óz mindetterin tolyq atqara almay otyr. Osynday mәseleni zerttep, aldyn ala jauabyn taba alatynday mәdeniyetimiz de qalyptaspaghan. Óitkeni avtoritarly memlekette ómir sýrip jatyrmyz...

Adamnyng ekinshi bir adamgha senimin arttyrmay, memleketting ishindegi tynyshtyqty, ekonomikalyq ósimdi bayandy ete almaymyz. Ekonomika, biznes tynyshtyghy túraqty elde damityny aitylyp jýr ghoy, al býgingi túraqtylyq sayasaty shyn mәnindegi sayasat emes, ol býgingi biyleushilerding sayasy jaghdayyn saqtap qalu ýshin jýrgizilip otyr, shynayy túraqtylyqqa qatysy joq úghym. Biylikke degen senimning de devalivasiyasy bolady, ol bir kýnning ishinde mort synuy mýmkin. Halyqtyng senimimen oinaugha bolmas, osy mәseleni týsinbegen biylikting de bolashaghy búlynghyr!

– Aydos, elding de, bizding de senimimizge selkeu týspeytin jaghdaygha jeteyik, ashyq aitylghan әngimenizge rahmet!

Baqytgýl MÁKIMBAY.

Abay. Kz

«Obshestvennaya pozisiya» gazeti.

(proekt «DAT» №06 (277) ot 12 fevralya 2015 g.