Qazirgi kóp oqylymdy kitaptardyng avtory týrkiyalyq jazushy, Nobeli syilyghynyng iyegeri Orhan Pamukting shygharmalary osyghan deyin әlemning 62 tiline audarylyp, 100-den astam memleketke taraldy. Qalam ústaghan adam ýshin búnyng ózi ýlken jetistik. Orhan Pamuk osy súhbatynda jazushylyq sheberlik, kitap jazudaghy ústanymdary, shyghys pen batys órkeniyetindegi qaqtyghystar jәne ony óz shygharmalaryna qalay kiristirgeni turaly óz oiyn aitady.

Jaqsy jaza alatynyma sendim

— Sizding «Mening oghash oilarym» atty romanynyz maghan qatty әser etti, tolyq oqyp shyqtym. Men adamdar men әlde bir memleket, jer turaly jazylghan shygharmalardy únatyp oqushy edim.

— Búl shygharma kóshede shaghyn dýken ashatyndardyng ómiri turaly edi. Anyghyn aitqanda, Stambúldaghy kóshe saudagerleri haqynda. Mening bala kezimde airan qazirgidey qoraptalyp satylmaytyn. Ony kóshede tagham satatyndardan alatynbyz. Tek airan ghana emes, kartop, qyzanaq, jýgeri, sýt siyaqty kýndelikti azyq-týlikterdi de sol jerden tabatynbyz. Olar búl taghamdardy qaqpanyng aldyna deyin alyp keletin. Alpys bes jyl boyy Stambúlda túryp kelemin. Sodan beri búl qala adam tanymastay ózgerdi. «Mening oghash oilarym» degen romanym 40 jyl boyy Stambúl kóshesinde tagham satumen ainalysqan Mәulit esimdi keyipkerim turaly kitap. Osy kitapty jazyp shyghu ýshin men kóptegen kóshede tagham satushylarmen әngimelestim. Shygharmadaghy mening Mәulitim basqalar sekildi 1960 jyldary ózge aimaqtan Stambúlgha qonys audarghan azamat. Stambúldy adaspay tapqan ol baspana salyp, otbasymen birge ómir sýrip jatady. Onyng osydan 40 jyl búryn zansyz salyp alghan shaghyn ýiining ornyna qazir 20 qabatty alyp ghimarat boy kóterdi. Sol ýshin mening Mәulitimning bastan keshkeni Stambúldyng bastan keshkenimen birdey dep oilaymyn.

- Siz bir sózinizde «týn ortasynda qalany tamashalaudy, ondaghy adamdardyng «jalghan keyipke» engen tirshiligin kózben kórip, oigha týidi janym qalaydy» dep ediniz. Ne ýshin týn ortasynda osynday «barlau» jasaysyz?

— Óitkeni qalalar týnde keremettey poetikalyq kýige enedi. Jarym týnde Stambúldy aralap jayau jýemin. Ásirese jastau kezimde ýnemi solay isteytinmin. Sol shaqtarda Stambúldyng tynyshtyghyn jamylyp, tanghy saghat tórtke deyin roman jazugha otyratynmyn. Týn ortasynda qanghyghan itterdi, mastardy jәne týngi kýzetshilerdi kóp kezdestiresin. Maghan Stambúl siyaqty ýlken shaharlardyng týngi poetikalyq kýii, jym-jyrt sәti únaydy, onyng әr sәtin baqylap, oigha týiip, detalidar jinap, sosyn kórkem shygharma etip jazamyn.

— Ne ýshin ondaghy adamdardy «jalghan keyipke engen» deysiz?

— Shynynda, búl maghan óte únaytyn taqyryp. Men «Qara kitap» atty romanymda osy turaly jazdym. Negizinde, búl shyghystyqtargha tiyesili dýnie edi. Adamdar túlghalaryn… keyipterin, minezin, «menin» jasyrghysy keledi. Búl kýidi «Myng bir týnnen» oqugha bolady. Sol ýshin de osynday kýy mening janyma jaqyn. Bilesiz be, mening barlyq romandarym azamattyq turaly bolyp keledi. Meni jeke túlghalardyng tabighaty qyzyqtyrady, sondyqtan osy turaly kóp oilanamyn.

— Áuelde suretshi bolghynyz keldi. Keyin arhiytektura salasyna qyzyqtynyz. Bәrin tastap, әdebiyetke at basyn búrdynyz. Súrayyn degenim, sәulet óneri sizding shygharmashylyghynyzgha әser ete aldy ma?

— Dúrys aitasyz, jeti jasymnan jiyrma ýsh jasyma deyin men suret ónerine әuestenip, suretshi bolghym keldi. Biraq bizding әulet injenerler әuleti edi. Mening atam, әkem, naghashylarymnyng bәri injenerlik salada júmys istegen. Sol ýshin men olar oqyghan uniyversiytetke týsip, olar siyaqty injener bolghym kelgen. Áu basta atam men әjemning armany osy edi. Mening otbasymdaghylardyng barlyghy matematikalyq túrghydan oilaytyn, men beyneleu ónerimen ainalysqan kezimnen bastap olar meni professor nemese sәuletshi bolady dep kýtti. Men Stambúldaghy eng jaqsy sәulet uniyversiytetine oqugha týstim, biraq ýsh jyldan keyin shygharma jaza alatynymdy bilip, oqudan shyghyp kettim. Onyng ýstine Týrkiyada túryp suretshi bola almaytynymdy týsindim, óitkeni ol jerde suret salu dәstýri qalyptaspaghan edi. Keyin mening әdebiyet salasynda atym shyqqan son, basqalar menen «Pamuk myrza, siz nege suret ónerinen ketip, jazushy boludy tandadynyz?» dep súray bastady. Áne, sol kezde men suret óneri turaly, islamdyq ýlgige ie sәulet óneri haqynda tamasha kitaptar jazugha bekindim. Mysal ýshin «Mening atym qyrmyzy» atty romanym klassikalyq islam әdebiyetining barlyq salalaryn qamtidy. Ol kitaptan siz Ferdousy turaly jәne ol jazghan «Shahname» tuyndysy jóninde, klassikalyq islam anyzdary, Osman imperiyasyndaghy miniaturister turaly oqy alasyz. Atalghan roman islamdyq miniaturalyq kartinalar jóninde syr shertedi, men osy romanymda klassikalyq islam oqighalaryn jana, zamanauy tәsilmen dramaturgiyaladym, tipti postmoderndik tәsilge de jol ashtym.

Mening «Qarym» islam sayasaty turaly

— Siz búl shygharmanyzdy jazu ýshin kóptegen zertteuler jasaghan bolarsyz?

— Tarihy roman jazu ýshin tarihy kitaptardy, tarihy materialdardy kóp oqu kerek. Mening eng ýlken tarihy romanym jәne meni әlemdegi tanymal etken kitabym «Mening atym qyrmyzy» boldy, búl kitap XVI ghasyrdaghy Osman miniaturalyq suretshilerining arasyndaghy oqighalardy ózek etti. Múnda olardyng ómiri men sol saladaghy sheberlikteri turaly ghana emes, sonymen qatar parsy jәne ishinara ýndilik Mogol suretshileri turaly jәne batys órkeniyetining yqpaly bayandalady. «Mening atym qyrmyzyny» jazardan búryn, men kóptegen tarihy kitaptardy aqtaryp, kóp zerttep, XV-XVI ghasyrlardaghy Parsy, Osman jәne Moghol miniaturalaryn zerttedim. Búl kitap klassikalyq әngimelerge negizdelgen, biraq qazirgi idiomalardy, qazirgi tildi, qazirgi әdebiyetti negiz etip jazylghan poetikalyq shygharma.

— Sizding eng tanymal kitabynyz qaysy?

— Amerika Qúrama Shtattarynda jәne soltýstik memleketterde «Qar» romanym ótimdi boldy. Biraq búl kitabym Týrkiyada nemese Aziya elderinde tym tanymal bola almady. AQSh pen soltýstik elderding «Qardy» jaqsy oqyghan sebebi ol kitap islam sayasatyn sóz etedi. Týrikter jәne aziyalyq oqyrmandar islam turaly biledi, biraq amerikalyqtar nemese soltýstik europalyqtar búl turaly kóp bilmeydi, sondyqtan olar mening «Qarymdy» únatyp oqydy.

— Sizding jaqsy kóretin jazushylarynyz kimder?

— Lev Tolstoy, Fedor Dostoevskiy, Marseli Prust jәne Tomas Mann.

— Kitap jazu sheberliginiz turaly da aityp berseniz.

— Osy súraq ýnemi mening aldymnan shyghady. Mýmkin, qazirgi adamdar meni bes minut ishinde qalay kitap jazu turaly týsindirip bere salady dep oilaytyn shyghar. Tipti olar ýshin men Kolumbiya uniyversiytetinde qalay kitap jazu turaly kurs ashyp, aqsha tabuym kerek pe eken? Kitap jazu ýshin, eng aldymen, óziniz senetin jәne ómirlik tәjiriybeden jinaqtalghan bir oqighany sóz etuiniz kerek; meyli, sen kýndelikti zattar dýkeninde iste, onyng ózi qyzyqty bolmaq. Meyli, sayahatshy bol, kórgeni men biletini kóp adam bol, ainalanda kóp dostaryng bar shyghar, olardyng ómirlik ústanymdary da sen ýshin qajetti detalidar boluy mýmkin. Osynyng bәri jaza bilgen adamgha shygharmanyng detalidary emes pe? Mine, osylardy arqau etip, bir roman bastap kete alasyz. Ary qaray jazugha tandap alghan oqighalardy súryptap, shiratasyz. Eng kerekti degen detalidardy saralap, taraushalargha bólip, jazugha otyrasyz. Shygharmanyzdy on bes nemese jiyrma bólimge bólgeniniz dúrys. Osydan keyin әr taraular men bólimder turaly oy qorytasyz. Kitap jazuda biluge tiyisti alghysharttar – mine, osy. Sizge osynday kenes aita alamyn.

— Bir sózinizde shygharmashylyqty ishki muzykany tyndaumen salystyrghan ediniz. Siz óziniz aitqan búl muzykanyng qaynaryn, anyghyn aitqanda, shygharmashylyqtyng bastauyn týsinuge tyrystynyz ba?

— Ár jazushyda aluan týrli kýy bolady. Keyde men onasha oilanyp otyryp poetikalyq kýy keshsem, sol kónil kýy boyynsha poetikalyq stilidegi shygharma jazamyn. Al keyde rasionaldy kýide bolamyn da, sonday stilige jatatyn tuyndyny ómirge әkelemin. Ár jazushy ózining keyipkerine úqsaydy. Ár sәt sayyn san týrli jaghdaydy, kónil kýidi bastan ótkizedi. Sóite kele, óz kónil kýiindi týzeuge kirisesin. Al roman muzykalyq shygharmamen barabar, sebebi onyng ishinde san týrli sezim men quat, alasapyran әuen sapyrylysyp jatady. Jazushy keyde aqyn, keyde tәrbiyeshi, keyde parasatty, keyde tym ashushan, keyde quanyshty, keyde qayghyly jan iyesi bolyp otyrady.

— Romandy aghashqa tenegen ediniz...

— Mening romandarym óte kólemdi, 450 betten asady, tipti keybiri odan da kóp. Mýmkin, keybireuler bir týn ishinde bir romangha kerekti detalidardy tauyp, shygharma jaza beredi dep týsinetin shyghar. Biraq búlay isteu mýmkin emes. Adamnyng qiyaly shekti. Men әr shygharmama kiriser aldynda әueli sol tuyndygha arqau bolatyn oqighalar men detalidar turaly kóbirek oilanamyn. Mysaly, bir aghash turaly roman jazbaqshy bolayyq. Ol ýshin eng aldymen barlyq japyraqtar, bútaqtar, tamyrlar turaly elestetuding keregi joq. Tek әngimening basyn sol aghashtyng mәlim bir dini men keybir japyraqtary jóninde bastasaq ta jetip jatyr. Osylaysha ózim jaqsy biletin nәrseler turaly kóbirek jazghan sayyn, maghan kóbirek mәlimetter kele bastaydy, tipti keybir japyraqtar, bútaqtar, tamyrlar jóninde de tyng oilar kezdesui mýmkin. Búl arada men tek aghashty mysal retinde ghana aityp otyrmyn.

Músylmandar men batystyqtardyng qyrghiy-qabaq boluyn qalamaymyn

— Bir shygharmanyzdy jazyp shyghu ýshin qanshalyqty izdeniske barasyz?

— Óte kóp, ony sózben jetkizu qiyn. Tipti key mәseleler tónireginde kóshedegi adamdarmen pikirlesemin, olardyng kózqarasyn, oiyn tyndaymyn. Osynyng ózi ýlken zertteu bolmaq. Eger «Mening oghash oilarymdaghy» siyaqty detalidar kerek bolsa, men bazardan sol kәsiptegi adamdy tauyp, sóilesemin.

— Qazirgi kezde kósheden sóilesetin adam tabu qiyngha týspey me?

— Key adamdardyng sóileskisi keledi, al keybiri qashady. Olar nege sóilesuden qashady desek, sayasattan qorqady. Tipti bóten adamdardan ýreylenetinderi de joq emes. Ózderining júpyny tirlikterinen, sәtsiz kýresterinen qymsynatyndar da bar. Eng bastysy, olar saghan sense, sonda ghana saghan aqtarylyp әngimesin aitady. Kóbinde men әr kezdesken adamgha kishipeyil hәm jyly jýzdi bolugha tyrysamyn. Kóshede airan satatyndardy, qara júmysshylardy, jer qazushylardy, tipti maskýnemderdi ýiime shaqyryp, olarmen saghattap sóilestim. Olar maghan senim bildirgende ishinde qaynap jatqan qyjyldaryn, әrtýrli әngimelerin aitudan arlanbaydy. Keyde olar «men óz basymnan ótkizgenderimdi aittym, endi aghamnyn, tuysymnyn, әpkemning әngimesin de sizge aitsam deymin, sizge óz әngimelerin aitqysy kelgender kóp» degen ótinishterin aityp jatady. Búnyng ózi de zertteuding bir týri.

— Oigha alghan romanynyz jazylyp bolghanda onyng key tústaryn qyrqyp, týzep otyru әdetinizde bar ma?

— Óndeu – qalypty prosess, әriyne, әr shygharmany qayta oqyp, týzep baryp, oqyrmangha jiberu kerek. Jaqsy jazudyng qúpiyasy – ýzdiksiz óndep, qayta tolyqtyryp otyru. Jazghan dýniyeni ayaqtay salyp, qanyn jerge tiygizbey baspagha jibere salu jaqsy qalamgerge tәn qasiyet emes. Men jazghan shygharmamdy qaytalap oqyp, týzep, tolyqtyrugha kóp uaqyt júmsaymyn.

— Sizding kóp shygharmalarynyzda shyndyq jii aitylady. Qazirgi kezde shyndyqty aitu qiyndyq tudyrmay ma?

— Medialardyng kýn sayyn damuyna baylanysty shyndyqty aitu qiyndap barady. Sandyq mediada әrkimning óz shyndyghy aitylyp jatady. Býgingi adamdar ózderine kerekti aqparattardy Facebook pen Twitter-den oqy beredi. Olar neni bilgisi kelse, neni estigisi kelse, osy platformalardan bile alady, estip, kóre alady. Búl – batys órkeniyetining taqyryby.

— Siz batys pen shyghys órkeniyetining baylanysy turaly jazdynyz. Osy mәsele jóninde qanday oidasyz?

- Mening kitaptarymnyng keybiri batys pen shyghys órkeniyetining qaqtyghystary haqynda sóz qozghaydy. «Qara kitap», «Mening atym qyrmyzy», «Qyzyl shashty әiel» siyaqty romandarymnyng kóbi iri órkeniyetterding aiyrmashylyqtary turaly, әsirese batys órkeniyeti men islam jәne Aziya órkeniyetin tilge tiyek etedi. Búl órkeniyetterding ózara aiyrmashylyqtary bar, men óz shygharmalarymda sony aitqym keldi. Ayttym da. Sebebi men týrikpin. Týrkiyalyq órkeniyet ishinara europalyq jәne islamdyq, aziyalyq órkeniyetterden qúralady. Sondyqtan búl qaqtyghys meni qyzyqtyrdy. Tek búl ghana emes, shyghys pen batystyng barlyq sayasy mәseleleri Týrkiyany mәdeny jәne sayasy túrghydan qalyptastyrugha qozghaushy boldy. Keyde órkeniyetter qaqtyghysyna sengim de kelmeydi, músylmandar men batystyqtardyng qyrghiy-qabaq boluyn qalamaymyn әri osy mәsele tónireginde qatty alandaymyn. Músylman elderi men Amerika, Europa elderi arasynda әldebir kelispeushilikter bola qalsa, tamaghymnan as ótpeydi. Músylman elderining Europa elderin dos kórip, olardy jau sanamaytynyna senemin.

- Jahandanu kýn ótken sayyn әlginde óziniz aitqan eki órkeniyetti jaqyndastyryp bara jatqan synayly…

— IYә, jahandanu bizdi biriktirip jatyr. Biraq jahandanudyng paydasyn kórgender óte siyrek. Jahandanudyng jyltyn sezbegen aziyalyq qoghamdar, kedey-kepshik júrttar búghan senbeydi, únatpaydy. Eger taptyq aiyrmashylyghy bolmasa, onda jahandanudyng paydasyn kóre alar edik. Negizi, jahandanu degen jaqsy ýrdis edi, biraq, ókinishtisi, onyng paydasyn alpauyt kompaniyalar men baylar ghana kórip otyr.

— Netflix siyaqty teledidarlyq jәne medialyq platformalar barghan sayyn damyp keledi, osylay kete berse kitap oqugha degen ynta birtindep joghala bastaydy dep oilaysyz ba? Búl jaghday jazushy retinde sizdi alandata ma?

— Joq, men búghan alandamaymyn. Búl kitap oqymaytyn adamdar qoyatyn súraq. «Men baqytty jazushymyn» dep maqtanyshpen aita alamyn. Osyghan deyin kitaptarym 62 tilge audarylyp, millionnan astam oqyrmanym shygharmalaryma qyzyghushylyq tanytty. Kitap oqityndar azayyp ketti dep baybalam salatyndardyng qatarynan emespin. Netflix-ting seriyalyq jobalaryn qoldaymyn, olar mening shygharmalarymdy da serialady.

Men óte enbekqor jazushymyn

— Sizding oiynyzsha, qazirgi jazushylar teleserialdar men filimder ýshin kitap jaza ma? Búlay isteu shygharmanyng sapasyna qanday da bir әser etetin shyghar?

— Ssenariy men roman ekeui eki basqa dýniye. Ssenariy jazatyndar men kórkem shygharma jazatyndar da mýlde úqsamaydy. Romanister tek roman jazady. Al ssenariyster jazghan shygharmasyn әldebir filimge, teleserialdargha beyimdep jazady. Qazirgi jazushylardyng teleserialdar men filimder ýshin kitap jazyp jatqanyn bilmeydi ekenmin. Mýmkin, sizding aralasatyn dostarynyz solay isteytin shyghar. Biraq múnday tendensiya joq dep oilaymyn.

— Sizdi ne quandyrady?

— Shygharmashylyqqa den qoyyp, basqa әlemdi úmytyp, birdene jazumen qolym bosamasa, sayasi, ekonomikalyq jәne jeke bastyq mәselelerge bas qatyrmasam, sol meni quantady. Men óte enbekqor jazushymyn. Ýnemi qolgha qalam ústau da men ýshin ýlken quanysh.

— Al sizdi qanday mәsele jii mazalaydy?

— Óz Otanym men dostarym turaly armandarymnyng jýzege aspauy, uaqytymdy dúrys paydalana almauym, elimning qoghamdyq jaghdayynyng esh ózgerissiz kýide qaluy, kedeylik pen әdiletsizdik siyaqty qiytúrqylyqtargha dúrys sheshim bolmauy meni jii mazalaydy.

— 2006 jyly әdebiyet salasyndaghy Nobeli syilyghyn aldynyz. Sol sәtten qanday tamasha estelik aita alasyz?

— Ol syilyqty alghanda quandym, biraq tanghalghan joqpyn. Nobelidi alatynyma kóp adamdar senimmen qarady. Ózim de úzasa on jyldan keyin alatyn shygharmyn dep oilagham, biraq oiymdaghy mezetten sәl erterek aldym. Nobeli syilyghy maghan kóptegen jauapkershilik jýktedi. Búl men ýshin shynymen ýlken quanysh әri mәrtebe boldy. Ol kezde mening shygharmalarym dýniyejýzining 42 tiline audarylghan edi, al qazir 62 tilge audarylyp, 100 memleketke taraldy. Meni kóp kýtken oqyrmanym ýshin óz uaqytymdy bosqa ótkizbey, solar túshynyp oqityn kitaptar jazudy maqsat ettim. Oqyrmandaryma senemin әri syilaymyn. Nobeli syilyghy turaly eshqanday bóten oiym joq. Týrkiya, Europa jәne basqa elder maghan eng jaqsy syilyqtardy berdi. Sol ýshin men bәrine razymyn. Eshkimge ókpem de joq.

— Osynday jauapkershilikti sezinu ýshin sizde kýizelis boldy ma?

— Dúrys aitasyn, bolghanda qanday... Kýizeliske úshyraghanymdy sezgen son, odan qútyludyng jolyn qarastyryp, oigha alghan bir sharuamdy jalghastyramyn. Mysaly, osydan biraz uaqyt búryn Shardjagha kitap kórmesine kelgende men ózimning kýizelisterimdi mýldem úmytyp, arab jәne halyqaralyq oqyrmandarymmen quana jýzdestim.

— Ángimenizge raqmet.

— Saghan da raqmet.

Aghylshyn tilinen audarghan

Dýisenәli Álimaqyn

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