Talghat MAMAShEV,

Dýniyejýzi qazaqtary qauymdastyghy tóralqa tóraghasynyng birinshi orynbasary:

«Últaralyq tatulyq - basty qúndylyq»

Syrttaghy qazaqtardyng sany bir memleketting halqyna para-par

— BÚÚ-nyng ólshemderi boyynsha memleket halqynyng 70 payyzyn bir últ ókilderi qúrasa, ol monoúltty memleket retinde tanylady. Býginde qazaqtyng sanyna qatysty týrli әngimeler aitylyp jýr. Resmy derekter 65 payyz degenimen, qazaqtyng eldegi ýlesi 70 payyzgha jetip qaldy degen әngimelerdi de estip qalamyz. Shyndyghynda biz qanshamyz? Elde qanshamyz? Syrtta she?

— Ózinizge belgili, osydan 4-5 jyl búryn elimizde halyq sanaghy jýrgizildi. Onyng tónireginde birshama dau da boldy. Soghan qaramastan sol kezdegi derekter negizinen shyndyqqa sәikes keledi. Býginde respublikadaghy halyq sany 17 million desek, sonyng 11 milliony qazaqtar. Al, qazaqtardyng ýlesi 70 payyz degen tek joramal ghana. Búl mәlimetting eshqanday negizi, dәleli joq. Bizding keybir demograftarymyz osylay túspaldap, boljap ketedi. Mәselen, Maqash Tәtimov Ózbekstandaghy qazaqtardyng sany 2,5-3 million deydi. Ol kisi ózbek bolyp tirkelip ketken qandastarymyz kóp ekenin aitady. Biraq, múnyng bәri qisynsyz әngime nemese jәy ghana qaueset dep esepteymin.

Jalpy, Tәuelsizdik alghan alghashqy jyldarda qandastarymyzdyng eldegi sandyq ýlesi 39 payyz ghana bolatyn. Odaq ydyraghan song birqatar últtardyng ókilderi tarihy otandaryna attandy. Esesine sheteldegi qazaqtar atajúrtqa oraldy. Últymyzdyng tabighy ósimi de jaqsardy. Topshylay aitar bolsaq,  eldegi qazaqtardyng sany jyl sayyn 1-1,5 payyzgha artyp otyrdy. Sonyng arqasynda býginde 65 payyzgha jettik. Tarihy ólshemmen alyp qaraghanda qas-qaghym sәttey kórinetin shiyrek ghasyrgha juyq uaqytta eldegi memleket qúraushy últtyng ýlesi 25-26 payyzgha artty. Búl shynynda da ýlken jetistik. Eger memleket qúraushy últtyng sany artyp jatsa, búl Elbasy aitqanday, Qazaq eli atanuyna jol ashatyn shyghar. Alayda, onyng ózi Qazaqstanda qazaqtan ózgening mýddesi eskerilmeydi degendi bildirmeydi. Últaralyq tatulyq qashan da bizding basty qúndylyqtarymyzdyng biri bolyp qala beredi.

Al, syrttaghy qandastarymyz jónindegi әngime bólek. Sol ótken ghasyrdyng toqsanynshy jyldarynda shetelderde 4,5-5 millionday qazaq bar edi. Tәuelsizdik jyldarynda elge 1 millionday qandasymyz oraldy. Biraq, onymen sheteldegi qazaqtardyng sany kemigen joq. Áli de syrtta 4,5-5 millionday bauyrymyz bar. Demek, biz jat júrttarda jýrgen qandastarymyzdyng tek tabighy ósimin ghana elge әkelip otyrmyz.

Osy tústa aita keterlik taghy bir jәit, biz syrttaghy qazaqtardyng sanyn әli de naqty bile almay otyrmyz. Qauymdastyq búl mәlimetterdi ózinshe toptastyryp, saralaydy. Shetelderdegi diasporalarymyzdyng mәdeny ortalyqtary bergen mәlimet pen sol elderding resmy statistikasyn basshylyqqa alamyz. Mәselen, resmy Beyjing taratqan mәlimet boyynsha Qytayda 1 million 300 myng qazaq ómir sýredi. Al, ondaghy mәdeny ortalyqtyng bergen mәlimeti boyynsha qazaqtardyng sany 1,5 millionday adamdy qúraydy. Al, Reseyding resmy mәlimetterine sýiensek, ol jaqta 850 myng qazaq bar. Degenmen, búl derek te naqtylaudy qajet etedi. Óitkeni, songhy jyldary orystardyng sandyq ýlesi kemip bara jatqandyqtan, ondaghy biylik Reseydegi az últtardyng sanyn qysqartyp, sonyng esebinen orystardy kóbeytip kórsetude. Negizinen soltýstik kórshimizding aumaghynda da 1 million qandasymyz bar. Al, Ózbekstanda búl maghlúmattar mýlde qúpiya saqtalady. Tipti, ondaghy qazaqtardyng sany jóninde resmy derek te joq. Tashkenttegi mәdeny ortalyq bergen mәlimet boyynsha búl elde 1 million 500 mynday qazaq ghúmyr keshude. Demek, atalghan ýsh memleketting ózinde 4 million qazaq túrady. Oghan Mongholiya, Týrkiya, Aughanstan, Iran men TMD elderinde jәne Europadaghy qazaqtardy qosynyz. Sonda shetelderde әli de 5 milliongha juyq qazaq ómir sýrude. Bes million adam degeniniz, bylaysha aitqanda, bir memleketting halqymen para-par emes pe?! Búl bizding demografiyalyq qana emes, ruhaniy-mәdeny damuymyzgha serpin beretin zor әleuet, últ retinde saqtalyp qaluymyzdyng ýlken tiregi. Sondyqtan qauymdastyq tarapynan tiyisti memlekettik organdargha, sonyng ishinde Syrtqy ister ministrligine syrttaghy qazaqtardyng sanyn naqtylaugha baylanysty úsynys joldadyq.    

— Songhy jyldary elge qaray aghylghan kósh sayabyrsyp qalghanday. Bir súhbatynyzda búghan salany jaylaghan jemqorlyq sebep boldy depsiz. Endi zannamagha ózgeris engizildi. Jana zang әlgindey kelensiz jәitterding qaytalanbauyna kepil bola ala ma? Qauymdastyq salada zandylyq pen tәrtipting ornauyna qoghamdyq baqylau jýrgizuge qauqarly ma?

— IYә, búl mәselede kóptegen kemshilikter oryn aldy. Múnyng bәri kóshi-qondy ózderinshe bizneske ainaldyrghan bir toptyn, saladaghy әbden asqynghan jemqorlyqtyng saldary bolatyn. Olar jat jerdegi qandastardy atajúrtqa tiyimdi qonystandyrudy emes, osy iske budjetten bólingen milliardtaghan qarjyny talan-taraj etip, qaltasyna basudy oilady. Memleketting milliondaghan qarjysy jelge úshty. Sol kezderde Mongholiyadan kelgen qandastardyng qújattary qolyma týsti. Qarap otyrsam, jasy qyryqtan aspaghan otbasylardyng bәrinde shetinen 7-8, tipti onshaqty baladan bar. Búl kónilge kýdik úyalatty. «Áy, búl qalay» dep súraghanymda eshkim túshymdy jauap bere almady. Keyin belgili bolghanday, bizdegi tiyisti memlekettik organnyng jauapty qyzmetkerleri sondaghy pysyqay qandastarymyzben kelisip, jalghan qújat әzirlegen eken. Al, bizdegiler balalardy sapqa túrghyzyp qoyyp sanap otyrmaghan. Qújatqa sýienip, ómirde joq balalargha kvota qarjysyn bóle bergen. Osynday zansyzdyqtar kóbeyip ketken song Memleket basshysy tәrtipsizdikter men kemshilikterdi jong jóninde tapsyrma bergenin de bilesizder. Biraq, Preziydent «kóshti toqtatyndar» degen joq, «ony týzetinder, tәrtip ornatyndar» dedi. Al, bizding biyliktegi «shash al dese bas alatyn» bazbireuler Elbasynyng tapsyrmasyn oryndaymyz dep, ayaq astynan zannyng jana jobasyn jasau arqyly kóshti toqtatugha deyin bardy. Parlamentte sol zang jobasy tanystyrylyp, «oralmandargha bes jylgha deyin azamattyq bermeu kerek» degen úsynys aitylghan kezde men jurnalisterge súhbat berip: «Búl ne degen bassyzdyq?! IYә, kemshilikterding bary ras, týzeu kerek. Ayyptylar jauapqa tartyluy tiyis. Biraq, ol ýshin kóshti toqtatyp, syrttaghy aghayynnyng kóz jasyna qalugha bolmaydy» degenmin. Búl jaghdaygha sheteldegi qandastarymyz da alandaushylyq bildirip jatty.

Ol zanda azamattyq aludyng merzimi úzartylyp qana qoyghan joq. Sonymen birge «azamattyq alu ýshin búrynghy mekenjayynnan esepten shyqqanyng turaly anyqtama, ol elde sottalmaghanyndy rastaytyn qújat әkel» deytin orynsyz talaptar qoyyldy. Qala berdi, túraqty tirkeuge túru da talap etildi. Elge endi kelgen adamnyng múnda tughan-tuysqany, tanysy bolmauy mýmkin. Sonda olar qayda túraqty tirkeuge túruy tiyis edi? Qandastarymyzdy әure-sarsangha salatyn, sol arqyly jemqorlyqqa jol ashatyn osynday kertartpa normalar jana zannan alynyp tastaldy. Osynyng ózi salada tәrtip ornauyna aitarlyqtay yqpal etedi. Áriyne, zandylyqtyng saqtaluyna shama-sharqymyzsha qoghamdyq baqylau ornatugha tyrysamyz. Búl bizding búrynnan da atqaryp kele jatqan sharuamyz. Degenmen, búl mәsele әueli qúqyq qorghau organdarynyng nazarynda boluy tiyis. 

Baquatty otbasylar

kelip boldy...

— Azamattyq alu tәrtibining jenildetilui, merzimining qysqaruy oralmandar sanynyng kóbengine yqpal etedi me? Aldaghy onjyldyqta elge qansha qazaq keledi dep boljanuda?

— Densaulyq saqtau jәne әleumettik damu ministrligi әzirlegen jana zang jobasy shetelden keletin qandastarymyzgha kóptegen jenildikter úsynyp otyr. Birinshiden, azamattyq aludyng tәrtibi jenildetilip, merzimi qysqartyldy. Búrynghy zang boyynsha atajúrtqa oralghan qandastarymyz Qazaqstan azamaty atanu ýshin elde túraqty tirkeuge túryp, sodan keyin 4-5 jyl kýtui tiyis edi. Oghan qosa, jogharyda bayan etkenimizdey, shetelde túraqty tirkeuden shyqqany, sottalmaghany turaly anyqtama súralatyn-dy. Qazir múnyng barlyghy qysqartyldy. Endi syrttaghy aghayyndar 6 ay men 1 jyl aralyghynda azamattyq ala alady.

Ekinshiden, elge kelgen qandastarymyz kvota alu ýshin sheteldegi dýniye-mýlki men tabysynyng kólemin rastauy kerek edi. Shetelde baquat túrghan, dәuletti qazaqtargha kómek kórsetilmeytin. Endi jana zang boyynsha búl talap ta kýshin joydy. Oralmandar búryn әleumettik jaghdayy qalay bolghanyna qaramastan memleketting qoldauyna ie bolmaq. 

Ýshinshiden, búrynghy zannamada belgilengen oblystargha qonystanghan qandastarymyz ghana oralman mәrtebesine ie bolatyn. Endi qayda taban tirese de olar oralman atanady. Degenmen, Ýkimet úsynghan aimaqtargha qonystanghan oralmandar jan-jaqty qoldaugha ie bolady. Áriyne, syrttan kelgen aghayyn qay ónirge qonystanamyn dese de óz erkinde.

Jana zang 2015 jyldyng birinshi qantarynan bastap qoldanysqa enedi. Ondaghy jenildikter syrttaghy qandastardy elge oralugha yntalandyrary sózsiz. Degenmen, Elbasy aitqanday, sheteldegi qazaqtardyng barlyghyn Qazaqstangha kóshirip alamyz degen mindet joq.

— Dese de, qanday da bir josparlar, boljamdar bar shyghar...

— Áriyne, bar. 2025 jylgha deyin 700-800 myng qandasymyz atamekenge oralady dep kýtilude.

— Jaqynda ghana Mәjiliste túrghyn ýy salasyndaghy zannamagha engiziletin ózgerister talqylandy. Sonda oralmandardy baspanamen qamtamasyz etu mәselesi de kóterildi. Búl mәsele ong sheshimin tabuy mýmkin be?

— Syrttaghy qandastardyng arasyndaghy baquattylary býgingi kýnge deyin kelip boldy. Endigi qalghandarynyng basym bóligi әleumettik jaghdayy tómen otbasylar. Sondyqtan oralmandar ýshin baspana mәselesi óte ózekti. Ýkimet belgilegen ónirlerge, yaghny soltýstik oblystargha qonystanghan oralmandargha qyzmettik pәter beriledi. Bes jyldan keyin búl pәterlerdi jekeshelendiruge bolady. Sonday-aq, oralman emes, biraq Ontýstik Qazaqstan sekildi halqy tyghyz ornalasqan ónirlerde ýisiz-kýisiz jýrgen qazaqtargha da soltýstikten túraqty júmys pen qyzmettik baspana úsynylmaq.

Kóshi-qon degeniniz

ýlken sayasat

— Ukrainada oryn alghan sayasy shiyelenister últtyq sayasattyng qanshalyqty manyzdy ekenin taghy bir ret dәleldedi. Sondyqtan syrttan kelgen qandastardy soltýstik oblystargha qonystandyru zang boyynsha yntalandyrylyp otyrghan sekildi. Osy ýderisti, yaghny soltýstikti oralmandardyng esebinen qazaqylandyrudy kýsheyte týsu qajet siyaqty. Búghan ne deysiz?

— Kóshi-qongha baylanysty jana zannyng tezirek әzirlenuine, jalpy oralmandargha qatysty sayasy sheshim qabyldanuyna Ukrainadaghy daghdarys aitarlyqtay yqpal etti. Biz qazir qazaqtardy soltýstik oblystargha qonystandyrudy resmy týrde enbek resurstarynyng jetispeushiligine baylanysty dep jýrmiz ghoy. Shyndyghynda, týpki maqsat sol ónirlerge qazaqtardy kóbirek qonystandyru ekeni aiqyn. Týptep kelgende, kóshi-qon degeniniz de ýlken sayasat. Men eshkimdi kemsiteyin dep otyrghan joqpyn. Alayda, aitqan jerden aulaq, el basyna kýn tua qalsa,  kók tudyng astyna toptasatyn negizinen ózimizding qarakóz qandastarymyz bolatyny belgili. Bir jaghynan búl zandy da. Óitkeni, elding de, jerding de iyesi qazaqtar. Sәikesinshe jauapkershilik te bizding moynymyzda. Biylik osyny endi terennen týsindi. Búl mәselening sayasy jaghy. Ekinshiden, maqsatty týrde qonystandyru ekonomikalyq túrghydan da tiyimdi. Býginge deyin kelgen oralmandardyng 22 payyzy Ontýstik Qazaqstangha toqtapty. Qazir Shymkentte 10 sotyq jer aludyng ózi óte qiyn mәsele. Óitkeni, halyq kóp, bәsekelestik joghary. Aldaghy 10 jylda teriskey ónirlerge 700-800 myng oralman aparu josparlanyp otyr dedik. Sonymen birge Ontýstik ónirlerden taghy osynsha qazaqty soltýstikke qaray kóshiru kózdelip otyr. Osylaysha qazaghy az 5-6 ónirge 1 million 500 mynday qandasymyzdy shoghyrlandyru josparlanuda.  

— Býginde qoghamda «Oralmandar kezinde eldi tastap qashyp ketkenderding úrpaqtary, endi nege olargha erekshe jaghday jasaluy kerek?» degen synarjaq pikirler aitylyp qalady. Múnyng sebebi iydeologiyanyng aqsap túrghanynan ba  әlde búl halyq arasynda týsindiru júmystarynyng kemshin ekenin kórsetedi me?

— Alghashqy jyldary múnday pikirding keng taralghany ras. Alayda, qazir júrt mәselening mәnisin týsine bastady. IYә, múnday jel sózding әli de estilip qalatyny bar. Ondaylargha aitarymyz mynau. Aytalyq, Qytay qazaqtarynyng kóbi búl jaqtan kóship barghandar emes. Olar mekendep otyrghan baytaq dala ejelden-aq qazaq últyn qúraghan ru-taypalardyng ata qonysy. Múny Qytay jazbalary da teristemeydi. Qala berdi, 1864 jyly Qytay men Resey ózderining soltýstik jәne batys shekaralaryn bekitken kezde qazaqtyng biraz jeri aspan asty eline ótip ketken. Sol jyly Nayman men Kereyding 30 myng týtini, búl shamamen 150 myng adam, óz elinde, óz jerinde otyryp-aq jana shekaranyng arghy jaghynda qalyp, qytaylyq atanyp kete bardy. Ózbekstandaghy, Reseydegi, Mongholiyadaghy qazaqtardyng da biraz bóligi osynday shekara bólisi kezinde arghy jaqta qalyp qoyghandar.

Qala berdi, 1929 – 1934 jyldary qazaqtar shekara asyp, syrtqa kóshuge mәjbýr bolghany da tarihtan belgili. Olar da elden óz erkimen ketken joq. Olardy atamekeninen, kindik qany tamghan jerden ketuge sol kezdegi tarihy jaghdaylar iytermeledi. Kolhozdastyru, asharshylyq sekildi qasiretter tónip kelgen song mal-janynyn, aghayyn-tuysynyng amandyghyn oilaghan qandastarymyz atajúrtyn tastap, Ózbekstan, Tәjikstan, Týrkimenstangha, taghy bir bóligi Qytaygha asugha mәjbýr boldy.

Al, Aughanstan, Iran, Týrkiya jәne Europadaghy qazaqtar qalay ketti dersiz? Olar Qazaqstannan ketken joq. HH ghasyrdyng eluinshi jyldarynda Qytay qazaqtaryna qysym kórsetile bastaghanda tolqular, bas kóteruler bastaldy. Qytaydyng kommunistik partiyasy olardy ayausyz jazalady. Sóitip, 1951-1952 jyldary Altay men Ileden qazaqtar ýdere kóshti. Elge oralugha mýmkindik joq bolghandyqtan olar Tiybet arqyly Ýndistan, Pәkistan asyp, odan әri Aughanstan, Iran jәne Týrkiyagha baryp toqtady. Týrkiya qazaqtarynyng bir bóligi alpysynshy jyldardan bastap Europa elderine kóshti. Bir sózben aitqanda, qazaqtar taghdyrdyng aidauymen әlemning 40-tan astam eline taryday shashyrady. «Ózge elde súltan bolghansha, óz elinde últan bol» deytin qazaq esh uaqytta satqyndyqpen nemese qu qúlqynnyng qamy ýshin elden el asyp qanghyp ketken joq. Oralmandargha baylanysty әlgindey orynsyz pikirding ornyghuy tarihy sananyng qalyptaspaghandyghynan dep oilaymyn. Oralmandar atajúrtqa oralghandar. Ol — sening qandasyn, tuysyn, bauyryn...  Biz búl mәselelerdi qoghamgha ashyp týsindiruge tiyispiz. Bir ghana qauymdastyqtyng búghan shamasy jetpeui mýmkin. Búl iske últtyq sayasatymyzdyng bir bóligi retinde qarap, barlyq iydeologiyalyq organdar jәne baspasóz atsalysuy kerek.

— Osydan biraz uaqyt búryn sheteldegi qazaq diasporalarymen baylanys mәselelerimen ainalysatyn arnayy memlekettik organ qúrylatyny turaly aitylyp edi. Osynday basqarushy organ qúrylady  ma?

— Qazir búl saladaghy birden-bir memlekettik organ Kóshi-qon komiyteti bar. Onyng ýstine qazir memlekettik basqaru apparatyn ontaylandyru jýrip jatqanyn bilesiz. Desek te, sheteldegi qazaq diasporalarymen baylanys ornatatyn, olardyng layyqty bilim alyp, tabys tabuyna, tilin, dәstýri men mәdeniyetin saqtauyna kómektesetin memlekettik organ qajet-aq. IYә, Dýniyejýzi qazaqtary qauymdastyghy osy baghytta júmys istep jatyr. Biraq, búl qoghamdyq úiym bolghandyqtan, júmysymyz aqparattyq sharalarmen shekteletini ras. Búl әngime, siz aitqanday, osydan birshama uaqyt búryn kóterilip edi. Alayda, sayabyrsyp qaldy. Aldaghy uaqytta búl úsynysty biylikting esine qayta salamyz.

— Ashyq әngimeniz ýshin rahmet!          

Súhbattasqan

Aydar QÚLJANOV.