Vadim TREPAVLOV, tarih ghylymdarynyng doktory, Resey Ghylym Akademiyasy Resey tarihy institutynyng agha ghylymy qyzmetkeri:

27-tamyz kýni tarih ghylymdarynyng doktory Vadim Trepavlovpen Shopan-ata jerasty meshitining janynda jaqyn tanystym. Búl kezde alys-jaqyn shetelden, Qazaqstannyng әr aimaghynan kelgen ghalymdar II Halyqaralyq «Kaspiy-Aral ónirining tarihiy-mәdeny múralary» ghylymiy-tәjiriybelik konferensiyasynyng jýrmeli seminaryna qatysyp jýrgen, bylaysha aitqanda qasiyetti oryndargha ziyarattap jýr edi. Vadim Vinserovich ekskursovodtan әulie Shopan-ata turaly aitylghan anyz, mәlimetterdi tóninkirep tyndap, saualdar qoyyp otyrdy. Aziya jәne Europa elderindegi noghayly tarihyn zerttep jýrgen professordy Manghystaudyn, Qazaqstannyng qay tarihy qyzyqtyrghanyn bilgimiz kelip, әngimege tartqan edik. Biz әngimeni Resey jәne Qazaqstan tarihyna ortaq dýniyeler men qasiyetti oryndar auanyna búrdyq.

Vadim TREPAVLOV, tarih ghylymdarynyng doktory, Resey Ghylym Akademiyasy Resey tarihy institutynyng agha ghylymy qyzmetkeri:

27-tamyz kýni tarih ghylymdarynyng doktory Vadim Trepavlovpen Shopan-ata jerasty meshitining janynda jaqyn tanystym. Búl kezde alys-jaqyn shetelden, Qazaqstannyng әr aimaghynan kelgen ghalymdar II Halyqaralyq «Kaspiy-Aral ónirining tarihiy-mәdeny múralary» ghylymiy-tәjiriybelik konferensiyasynyng jýrmeli seminaryna qatysyp jýrgen, bylaysha aitqanda qasiyetti oryndargha ziyarattap jýr edi. Vadim Vinserovich ekskursovodtan әulie Shopan-ata turaly aitylghan anyz, mәlimetterdi tóninkirep tyndap, saualdar qoyyp otyrdy. Aziya jәne Europa elderindegi noghayly tarihyn zerttep jýrgen professordy Manghystaudyn, Qazaqstannyng qay tarihy qyzyqtyrghanyn bilgimiz kelip, әngimege tartqan edik. Biz әngimeni Resey jәne Qazaqstan tarihyna ortaq dýniyeler men qasiyetti oryndar auanyna búrdyq.

- Vadim Vinserovich myrza, dәl qazir Manghystaudasyz. Osy ónirding jәne Reseyding ótken tarihy arasynda qanday tarihy sabaqtastyq bar?
- Dalalyq aimaqta myndaghan ghasyr boyy kóptegen halyq ghúmyr keshti. Búl halyqtar artyna ghajap múralar, eskertkish-ter, mәdeniyet qaldyrdy. Re-sey tarihy ghylymynda Batys Qazaqstan tarihy múralaryna degen dәstýrli qyzyghushylyghy bar. Reseydegi, basqa da ónirdegi týrki halyqtarynyng ata-babalary osy dalada ómir sýrdi. Qazaqstan territoriyasynda ómir sýrgen halyqtar Resey memlekettiligining taghdyryna әser etip otyrghan. Eng aldymen, әriyne osy orayda Altyn Orda memleketi dep atalghan Joshy úlysy kezenin eske týsiremiz. Búl turaly kóbisi oqulyqtardan da oqyp-bilip jatqan bolar.
1380 jylghy Kulikovo shayqasynan keyin Rusiyanyng baghynyshtylyghyn qalpyna keltirgen Altyn Ordanyng әigili hany Toqtamystyng Manghystau ónirining tumasy desek bolady. Onyng әkesi Zúlqoja (Týie-Qoja.Red.) Manghyshlaqta ómir sýrgen, osy aimaqty basqarghan túlgha bolghan.
- Kulikovo shayqasy degennen shyghady, orys knyazdikterining Altyn Ordadan azattyq aluy osy shayqastan bastaldy ma? Shyndyghy qaysy?
- 1380 jyly 8-qyrkýiekte Mәskeu knyazi Dmitriy Donskoy armiyasy marshal (beklerbek) Mamay әskerimen soghysyp, jeniske jetedi. Resey tarihnamasynda osy shayqas Altyn Ordanyng búghauynan bosaghandyghynyng bastaluy dep esepteledi. Búl - óte kýrdeli mәsele. Óitkeni, 14-ghasyrdyng ortasynda Altyn Orda memleketi әlsirey bastaghanda Mәskeu knyazdigi salyq tóleudi doghardy. Ótken tәrtipti qalpyna keltiru ýshin Mamay joryq úiymdastyrdy. Biraq sәtsizdikke úshyrady. Mamay ontýstikke jyl-jyp, Qyrym úlysynan qayta әsker jinay bastady. Beklerbekting búl shabuyly jýzege assa, Mәskeu knyazdigi jauap bere almauy mýmkin edi. Alayda dәl osy kezdegi taq talas nәtiyjesinde jana han bolyp Toqtamys sayasy arenagha shyghady. Ol Mamaydy talqandaydy. Altyn Ordanyng búrynghy territoriyasyn qalpyna keltirip basqarghysy keldi. Al, orys knyazdikteri Toqtamysty «han», «patsha» dep moyyndady. Biraq salyq tólemey otyryp aldy. Kulikovo shayqasynan eki jyl ótken song Toqtamys Mәskeuge joryq jasap, qalany órtep jiberdi. Mәskeu alym-salyq tólep túratyn boldy. Altyn Ordanyng búghauynan bosadyq, tәuelsizdik ala bastadyq degen Resey tarihshylarynyng tújyrymy uaqyt jaghynan erte aitylghan siyaqty. Óitkeni shayqastan keyin de 100 jyl boyy Altyn Ordanyng biyligin moyyndap, alym-salyq tólep otyrdy emes pe?!
- II Halyqaralyq «Kaspiy-Aral ónirining tarihiy-mәdeny múralary» ghylymiy-tәjiriybelik konferensiyasyna keluge nege mýddeli boldynyz?
- Manghystauda ótken búl konferensiya ghalymdardyng pikir, tәjiriybe almasu rólin atqaryp qoyghan joq, sonday-aq auqymdy jobalardyng iske asuyna múryndyq boldy. Oblys әkimi Qyrymbek Kósherbaev konferensiyanyng ashylu saltanatynda Aqtauda Aral-Kaspiy óniri tarihiy-mәdeny múralaryn zertteu ortalyghyn ashu turaly úsynys aitty. Búl - dúrys aitylghan ýlken iydeya. Ghalymdar búl bastamany qoldady. Negizi Manghyshlaqtyng akademiyalyq tolyq tarihyn jazatyn, zertteytin mezgil әldeqashan pisip jetilgen degen pikirime qazaqstandyq әriptesterim kelisetin shyghar. Sebebi, Manghyshlaqtyng múrasy óte bay. Biraq týbekting tarihy ghylymy túrghyda әli jóndi zerttelmey keledi.
- Qasiyetti oryndardy aralap jýrsiz, әseriniz qanday? Jәne de siz ýshin búl oryndar qanday janalyqtar berdi?
- Mening zertteu nysanym - orta ghasyrlyq týrki memleketteri. Al, qazir qasiyetti oryndardyng sakralidyq topografiyasy mәselesine qyzyghushylyq tanytyp jýrmin. Búl oryndar әr týrli jaghdayda payda bolady. Keybiri tabighy әserden, endi biri qasiyetti piradardyng túrghan jeri, jerlengen jeri boluy mýmkin. Sonday-aq, memlekettik biylikting ortalyghy da. Deshti-Qypshaqtaghy, osy úlan baytaq daladaghy tәu etu, ziyarat etu oryndary meni qatty tanghaldyrdy. Osy ýshin men konferensiyagha keldim. "Sakralidy oryndar qalay payda boldy?" degen súraq tuady. Osy eks-kursiyada men ýshin belgisiz bolghan bir mәlimetti bildim. Shopan-ata jәne osy sekildi ruhany túlghalar ózderine belgili bir mistikalyq energiya shyghatyn jerdi tandap, qonys etken. Astana tandau da sol siyaqty. Qanshama halyq, úrpaq auyssa da, memleket basshysynyng reziydensiyasyn bir jerden tandaydy. Mәselen, Rimning kýni býginge deyin qanshama halyqtyn, memleketting astanasy bolyp keldi. Mәskeu, Riym, Konstantinopoli, Povoljie taghy basqa jerlerding sakralidy kartalary qúrastyrylghan, jasalghan. Al, Deshti-Qypshaqtaghy sakralidyq topografiyamen ainalysyp jýrgen eshkim joq. Búl - óte qyzyqty taqyryp.
- Siz biraz ghúmyrynyzdy, enbeginizdi noghaylardyng tarihyna arnadynyz. Noghaydyng qazaqqa qanday qatysy bar?
- Kóshpeli qypshaq órkeniyetining tikeley qazirgi múragerleri - qazaqtar jәne Soltýstik Kavkazdaghy noghaylar. Zamanynda Noghay Ordasy Resey aimaghyn aitpaghannyng ózinde qazirgi Qazaqstannyng jerining biraz bóligin alyp jatty. Býginde noghaylardyng sany azayyp ketti. Orta ghasyrlyq Qazaq handyghy men Noghay ordasy memleketteri egiz baladay boldy, halqynyng qúramy birdey edi. Óitkeni ekeui de bir aghzadan - ydyraghan Altyn Ordadan shyqty. Mәselen, nayman taypasy noghay ordasynda túrsa, noghay bolyp, qazaq territoriyasynda túrsa qazaq bolyp sanaldy. El (el) degen negizgi úghymgha birikti. Elge (qazaq eline) qonyrat ta, nayman da, manghyt ta, aday da t.b. taypalar da jatty. Al, Noghay Ordasynyng qúlauy birinshiden, ishki alauyzdyqtan, ekinshiden, qalmaqtardyng ekspansiyasy, ýshinshiden, orys imperiyasynyng sayasatynan boldy.
- Súhbatynyzgha rahmet!

Súhbattasqan:
Dәuren SEYITJANÚLY

maqalagha oray
Vadim Vinserovich Trepavlov (1960 jyly 10 jeltoqsanda Sverdlovsk qalasynda tuylghan) - Resey Ghylym Akademiyasy Resey tarihy institutynyng agha ghylymy qyzmetkeri, Resey halyqtary tarihy jәne etnikaaralyq baylanys ortalyghynyng jetekshisi, professor, tarih ghylymdarynyng doktory.
1993 jyly XIII gh. Monghol imperiyasynyng memlekettik qúrylymy turaly kandidattyq dissertasiya, 2001 jyly «Noghay Ordasynyng tarihy» taqyrybynda doktorlyq dissertasiya qorghaghan. 20 ghylymy enbegi jaryq kórgen.

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