«Asharshylyq tragediyasy әr otbasynda boldy»

- Smaghúl agha, «Aq boz ýi» trilogiyasy kenestik kezendegi qazaq halqy bastan ótkergen genosid turaly jazylghan keng tynysty shygharma. Óziniz bir әngimenizde «әuletimizde qalam ústaghan eshkim joq, Tәnirden berilgen sәule arqyly osy tuyndyny dýniyege әkeldim» degen ekensiz. Asharshylyqqa arnalghan qazaq әdebiyetindegi alghashqy keng tynysty tuyndygha qalay keldiniz?

«Asharshylyq tragediyasy әr otbasynda boldy»

- Smaghúl agha, «Aq boz ýi» trilogiyasy kenestik kezendegi qazaq halqy bastan ótkergen genosid turaly jazylghan keng tynysty shygharma. Óziniz bir әngimenizde «әuletimizde qalam ústaghan eshkim joq, Tәnirden berilgen sәule arqyly osy tuyndyny dýniyege әkeldim» degen ekensiz. Asharshylyqqa arnalghan qazaq әdebiyetindegi alghashqy keng tynysty tuyndygha qalay keldiniz?

- Bizding auyl ótken ghasyrdyng otyzynshy jyldary qarsanynda Aqtóbe oblysynyng Bayghanin audanynan Qaraqalpaqstangha kóship, ol jaqta 1932 jyldyng asharshylyghyna úrynghan. 1925 jyly Qazaqstannyng basshylyghyna Goloshekin keldi. Ol kelgennen keyingi tarih bizge belgili. «Qazaq dalasynda Qazan tónkerisi bolmaghan eken, «Kishi Qazan tónkerisin» jasaymyz» dedi. Sóitip, 1928 jyly alasapyrandy bastap ketti. Búl - halyqty asharshylyqqa alyp keldi. Bizding el asharshylyqtyng aldynda, ókimet maldy jinay bastaghanda kóshken edi. Qaraqalpaqstan da Qazaqstangha qaraghandyqtan, barlyghy Goloshekinning qolastynda boldy. Osy jәitti kórgen әke-sheshemiz Týrkimenstangha ótip ketti. Olardyng aituynsha, Týrkimenstandaghy jaghday Qaraqalpaqstandaghy jaghdaydan mýlde bólek bolypty. Bala kezimizde sol tarihty kýn sayyn bizge aityp otyratyn. Men eseyip, Almatydaghy №12 mektep-internatty bitirdim. Keyin qarasaq, tarih oqulyghynda asharshylyq turaly resmy sóz joq, «sol jyldary asyra silteu boldy» degen sipatta ghana aitylady. Osydan keyin biz búl tarihty aqyryndap jinay bastadyq deuge bolady. Shyndyqty aitu qajet dep bildik. Uniyversiytetting 1-kursynda oqyp jýrgenimde men «Qashqyn auyl» degen romandy josparladym. Búl - «Aq boz ýidin» alghashqy eskiyzi bolatyn. Keyipkerleri kim, tarihy qalay? Biraq әli jazushy bolyp ýlgermegen studentke onday auyr taqyrypty kóteru mýmkin emes edi. Sondyqtan, ony dogharyp qoydyq, pisip-jetilgende jazarmyz dedik. Biraq, ashtyq taqyrybyna qúlaghymyz týrik jýretin.

1982 jyly kinostudiyanyng basshylyq bir júmysynan bas tartyp, erkin shygharmashylyq júmysqa auystym. Bizding elding eski júrty, Elubay shaldyng sýiegi jatqan jerge - Aqtóbening Bayghanin audanyna baryp, eldi araladym. Asharshylyq zamandy kózben kórgen qariyalarmen sóilestim. Kelesi jyly Qaraqalpaqstannyng Qonyrat audanyn, Týrkimenstannyng Tashauyz oblysyn aralap, bizding auylmen birge bolyp, birge kóshken taghdyrlas elding kózi tiri qariyalarymen sóilestim. Bizding auyl asharshylyqqa úrynghan 1932 jyly halyqty Ámudariya ózenimen Aral tenizi arqyly birneshe parohodpen Tarazdyng týbine әkelip tókken eken. Sol auyldargha bardym. Biraq, Tarazdyng tóniregindegi qariyalar maghan asharshylyq jóninde aitudan qoryqty. Ol kezde de Kenes ókimeti ghoy. Aytugha bolmaydy degen sayasatty auylgha deyin sinirgeni kórinip túrdy. Almatynyng batys jaghynda «Aqsay» atty say bar. Sol uaqytta ózim auyryp, densaulyghym syr berip jýrgen-di, azdap jýike sharshauy  boldy. 1982 jyly bir jaghynan emdeleyin, bir jaghynan júmys isteyin degen oimen shopan aghamyzdyng kiyiz ýiin búlaq basyna tigip, «Aq boz ýi» romanyn jazugha otyrdym. Ol kezde jasym 35-te bolatyn. Kitap, negizinen alghanda, kózkórgen adamdardyng әngimelerinen qúraldy. 1984 jylgha deyin, yaghni, ýsh jaz Aqsay sayynda ýy tigip otyryp jazyp shyqtym. Áriyne, ol zamanda múnday taqyryp baspadan ótpeytin. Baspagha alyp barghanymda, olar kitapty oqudan shoshydy, memlekettik jospargha engizbedi. Osylaysha, kitap 1990 jyldargha deyin 5-6 jyl jaryq kórmey jatty. Tek kommunistik jýie qúlaghannan keyin ghana jariyalana bastady.

- Ýsh kitaptan túratyn osy shygharma arqyly qazaq dalasyndaghy asharshylyqtyng bolmysyn asha aldym dep oilaysyz ba?

- 1982 - 1985 jyldargha deyin asharshylyq taqyrybyna arnalghan qazaq romany jazyldy degendi estigen emespin. Kenes ókimeti túsynda keng kólemde, roman janrynda qalam tartu mýmkin bolmady. Degenmen, asharshylyqty kózimen kórgen jazushylar kóp edi. Olardyng ishinde keybiri әli kýnge deyin kózi tiri. Biraq, bizding jazushylarymyzgha kenestik iydeologiya ótip ketken boluy kerek, eshqaysysy búl taqyrypqa qalam tartpady. Óz estelikterinde Ghabit Mýsirepovting aitatyny bar, onyng ózinde ashtyqtyng bir epizody ghana aitylady. Beyimbet Maylin 1921 jylghy asharshylyqty ózining «Kýlpәsh», «Asharshylyq qúrbany» degen әngimelerinde jazdy. Bi-aghang asharshylyq taqyrybyn әngime janrynda bolsa da keremet klassikalyq ýlgide jazdy. 1940 jyldary aqyn Jaqan Syzdyqov  «Ály qart» degen shaghyn ghana poema jazdy. Sol ýshin ol jazalanghan, kitaby órtelgen bolatyn. Toqsanynshy jyldargha jaqyndaghanda Balghabek Qydyrbekúly «Alatau» romanyn jazdy. Sonyng ishinde bir tarauy asharshylyqqa arnalghan. Óitkeni, roman Jetisu tarihynan syr shertetin. Sodan keyin Adam Mekebaev toqsanynshy jyldary «Qúpiya qoyma» degen shaghyn roman jazdy. Búl  asharshylyq taqyrybynda óte talantty jazylghan shygharma. Múnyng bәrin qosqanda osynau últtyng úly qasiretin óz dengeyinde tolyq qamtydyq dep aita almaymyn. Búl tragediyany tolyq qamtu mýmkin emes. Óitkeni, búl sol kezdegi әrbir auylda, otbasynda bolghan, 4 million qazaqty jalmaghan tragediya.

- Siz búghan deyin Ukraina, Resey elderining asharshylyqqa bergen baghasy jayly jii aityp keldiniz. Biyl Elbasy búl tarapta óz oiyn aityp, asharshylyqtyng 80 jyldyghyn atap ótuge tapsyrma berdi. Jalpy, zúlmat jyldardy eske aludy qanday dengeyde ótkizgen dúrys dep oilaysyz?

- Biz osy kýnge deyin bireudi ókpeletip qoyamyz ba, Kremliding kónilin qaldyramyz ba degen oimen auyz toltyryp aita almay keldik. Degenmen, biyl Qazaqstannyng Túnghysh Preziydenti Núrsúltan Nazarbaevtyng núsqauymen 1932-1933 jylghy asharshylyqtyng 80 jyldyghyn atap ótpekpiz. Qazirgi uaqytta atalghan zúlmatty jyldardy layyqty atap ótu jóninde qozghalys bastaldy. «Eshten kesh jaqsy». Múnyng bәri jasalugha tiyis sharalar. Mәselen, Europadaghy «Holokost» memorial keshenderi ýlgisimen keleshekte (tym alys bolashaqta deuge bolmaydy), asharshylyqty bastan ótkergender ómirden ótip ketpey túrghan kezde Qazaqstannyng týkpir-týkpirinen ashtyq qúrbandary top-tobymen jerlengen jerlerding topyraghyn jinap, memorial keshenin jasauymyz kerek dep oilaymyn. Memorialgha bir esiginen kirgen adam ekinshi esiginen shyqqansha Qazaqstannyng aqtandaqtaryn týgel kórip, sol oqighalardyng ortasymen jýrip ótkendey boluy kerek. Qazirgi kezde balauyzdan mýsin jasau asa qiyn óner emes. Sol balauyzben asharshylyqtaghy bir otbasynyng basyndaghy hal-ahualdy suretteuge bolady. Yaghni, búl otbasygha asharshylyq qalay keldi? Aldymen Goloshekinning atarman-shabarmandary, sholaq belsendileri onyng mal-mýlkin, azyq-týligin tartyp aldy ghoy. Osy prosesting bәrin balauyz mýsinder arqyly jasap kórsetuge bolady. Múny kórgen adam asharshylyq zúlmatyn kózben kórgendey bolady. Oghan tek asharshylyq emes, tarihtyng basqa da aqtandaq betterin, atap aitqanda, 1916 jylghy qazaq halqynyng últ-azattyq kóterilisin, 1937 - 38 jylghy repressiyany, tyng iygerudi, Jeltoqsan oqighasyn engizuge bolady. Osylaysha totalitarlyq rejim qúrbandaryna arnalghan memorial -keshen ornatyluy kerek dep bilemin.

Eger órkeniyetti últ bolamyz desek, genosidti bastan keshken órkeniyetti elder ornatqan  «Holokost» ýlgisindegi osynday keshen  ornatyp, biz de osynau qazaqtyng últtyq tragediyasyn bolashaq úrpaqqa jetkizuimiz kerek. Áriyne, bir-eki romanmen sharua bitpeydi, ashtyq taqyrybyna arnalghan teleserialdar nemese keng tynysty kórkem filimder týsirilui kerek dep bilemin. Otyzynshy jyldar aqiqatyn әdebiyette, ekranda býgingi úrpaq aitpasa, keler úrpaq ony jasay almaydy.

«Aq boz ýi» romany 1990 jyldan 2007 jylgha deyin mektep baghdarlamasynda oqytylyp kelgen. Qazir oqu baghdarlamasynan alynyp tastalypty. Nege ekenin bilmeymin.

Ýlken ekranda «Aq boz ýi» romany Damir Manabaevtyng rejisserligimen 1990 jyly 2 seriyaly filim bolyp týsirilgen. Biraq, sol filimdi týsirgen «Katarsiys» atty studiyanyng aqshasy bitip qalyp, filimning songhy jaghy sәl súiylynqyrap baryp bitti. Áriyne, oghan qayta oralugha , «Qazaqfilim» qayta týsiruge bolady dep oilaymyn.

- Biz gazetimizding juyrdaghy nómirlerinde qazaq halqy bastan ótkergen asharshylyq turaly últtyq drama sipatyndaghy kórkem filim týsiru qajettiligi jóninde jazghan bolatynbyz. Búghan arqau bolarlyq tragediyalyq kórinister zúlmat jyldary qazaqtyng әr otbasynda boldy ghoy...

- Áriyne, men sizge bir ghana epizodty aityp bereyin. Osydan bir jarym jyl búryn Jazushylar odaghynda asharshylyqqa sayasy bagha beru jóninde ghylymiy-tәjiriybelik konferensiya ótkizdik. Oghan kóptegen ghalymdar,  әdebiyet, óner qayratkerleri  jinaldy. Sonyng ishinde akademik marqúm Salyq Zimanov ta boldy. Salyq Zimanov óz ómirinen estelik aityp, 12 jasynda kórgen oqighasyn bayandap berdi. «Biz ol kezde Gurievtemiz. 1932 jyly qalanyng bazarlarynda ashtan búratylghan adamdar tolyp ketti. Sodan keyin olardy arbagha toltyryp alyp, qalanyng syrtyna aparyp, jerden qazghan apangha iytere salatyn. Biz, balalar, izinen erip baryp, ynyranyp jatqan adamdardy qyzyq kórip, bir jaghynan shoshimyz, bir jaghynan bala bolghan song qyzyq kórip qarap túramyz. Sonda apannyng týbinde ynyranghan halyq, bala-shagha, kempir-shal, ashtyqtan әli óle almay jatqan adamdardy óz kózimizben kórdik», - degen edi Salyq aghamyz. Yaghni, Goloshekin basqarghan ókimetting halyqqa jasaghan «qamqorlyghy» - olardy qútqarudyn, tamaq beruding ornyna, tiridey kóme salghan. Osynday jaghday Goloshekin basqarghan Qazaqstannyng talay jerinde bolghanyn bilemiz.

Múhtar Áuezov alghashqy qazaq qúryltayynda asharshylyq qúrbandaryna alandady

- Siz osydan eki-ýsh jyl búryn HH ghasyr basyndaghy qazaq sayasy qayratkerlerining biri Nyghmet Núrmaqovqa arnalghan jiynda keybir derekterde qazaq halqynyng sany 1911 jyldary jýrgizilgen sanaq boyynsha 10 milliongha jeteghabyl bolghan degendi aityp qalghan ediniz. Osy turaly taratyp aitynyzshy?

- Statistikalyq derekterge kóz jýgirtetin bolsaq, kózi ashyq qauymnyng barlyghyna belgili, 1897 jylghy halyq sanaghynda bizding halqymyzdyng sany 4 million 84 myng adam dep kórsetilgen. Ol kezde qyrghyz, tәjik, týrkimen halyqtarynyng әrqaysysy 300 mynnyng o jaq-bú jaghynda bolghan. Ózbek - 700 myn, sart - 700 myng dep kórsetilgen. 1 milliongha jetetin bireui de joq. Al, qazaq 4 millionnan asyp-jyghylghan. Birde ghalym aghamyz Myrzatay Joldasbekov Orynbordan Chulochkin degen tarihshynyng «Istoriya kirgiyz-kaysakov» atty kitabyn tauyp әkeldi. Onyng bir danasyn maghan berdi. Sonyng ishinde qazaqtardyng sany 1911 jyly 8 million adamdy qúrady dep jazylghan. Búl - shyn mәninde HH ghasyrdyng 20-jyldaryna deyingi qaghazgha týsirilgen  jalghyz derek deuge bolady. Biz oghan deyin tek Ahannyn: «Álhamdulla, 6 million halyqpyz» dep aitqan sózine ghana maldanyp jýrdik. Áriyne, ol da ras. Biraq, mynau qaghazgha týsken, zertteushi orys ghalymy  keltirgen derek qoy. Búny  Chulochkin qaydan alyp otyrghanyn bilmeymiz, biraq, bir derekten alghany anyq. Al, 1911 jyly 8 milliondy qúraghan qazaqty qyru prosesi 1916 jylghy oqighadan bastalghanyn bilesiz. 1918 jyly Kenes Odaghynyng territoriyasynda azamat soghysy bastalghanda onyng eng auyr zardabyn qazaq auyldary shekti. Óitkeni, qyzyldar da qazaqtyng malyn tartyp alatyn, aqtar da tartyp alatyn, erkimen bermese qyryp ketetin. Mineki, sonday alasapyran zamanda, 1917, 1918, 1919, 1920, 1921 jyldary qazaq dalasynda  alapat asharshylyqtyng alghashqy tolqyny bolyp ótti.

1920 jyldary oryn alghan asharshylyqtyng zardabyn sol kezdegi ziyalylardyng kóbi, Túrar Rysqúlov ta, Mústafa Shoqay da jazdy. Songhy kezde tarihshy, әdebiyetshi Túrsyn Júrtbay ÚQK-ning múraghatynan Múhtar Áuezovting 1921 jyly qazaqtyng túnghysh qúryltayynda sóilegen sózin tauyp aldy. Qúryltayda sóilegen sózinde Múhan: «songhy jyldary asharshylyqtyng saldarynan 1 million 700 myng qazaq qyryldy, onyng 700 myny balalar» degen. Sol kezende «Pravda» gazeti Safarov esimdi komissardyng 1 million qazaq qyryldy degen sózin jazdy. Ortalyq gazet qyrylghan halyqtyng sanyn qysqartyp aitqan boluy kerek. Biz Safarovqa senemiz be, Múhtar Áuezovke senemiz be? Áriyne, Múhana senemiz. Al, endi 1932 - 1933 jyldary oryn alghan asharshylyqqa keler bolsaq, onyng  esebin shygharghan tarihshylardyng aituynsha, onyng ishinde asharshylyqty kóp zerttegen ghalym Talas Omarbekovting sózine sýiensek, 2 million 300 myng adam opat boldy. Endi búl kórsetkishke 1918 - 1921 jyldar aralyghynda qyrylghan qazaqtyng sanyn Múhtar Áuezovting bergen deregi boyynsha 1 million 700 myng dep alsaq, ashtyqtan qyrylghan qazaqtyng barlyghy 4 million bolady. Mine, biz kenes ókimeti kezindegi asharshylyq saldarynan 4 million qazaq qyryldy dep aituymyz sodan. Keybir tarihy derekterde, 1932 jylghy asharshylyqta jalghyz qazaq emes, Qazaqstanda túratyn últ ókilderining bәri, yaghny 250 myngha juyq ózge últ ókili qyrylghan delinedi. Sonyng kópshiligi orystar bolghan.

- Asharshylyq jyldaryndaghy Almaty turaly ne aita alasyz?

- Maghan bir oqighany  kózkórgen marqúm Moldabay Ábdirov degen aqsaqal aityp edi: «QazPIY-de student edik. Institut zalynyn  prezidiumynda Goloshekin bastaghan respublika basshylary: «Bes jyldyqtyng jospary keremet oryndaldy. Ura-ura! Jasasyn, komunistik partiya!» dep aighay salyp, úrandatyp otyrdy.  Kýn ystyq bolghandyqtan, zaldyng esigi ashyq túrghan edi. Jinalysqa qatysyp otyrghan studentter, ashyq túrghan esikting ar jaghynda jolda ashtyqtan búralyp, qúlap jatqan qazaqtardy kórip, jylap otyrdyq. «Mynalar netken kórsoqyr, qanypezerler edi», - dep jylap otyrdyq» degeni este. Mine, osy bir epizodtyng ózi Goloshekin basqarghan sayasattyng qazaqqa qarsy baghyttalghan  qylmystyq, shovinistik sipatyn kórsetedi.

Tobolin degen komissar bir ýlken jiynda: «Qazaq - kóshpeli halyq. Olardyng sosialistik qúrylysqa túrmystyq dengeyi kelmeydi. Sondyqtan, olardyng joyyluy tarihy zandylyq» dep ashyqtan-ashyq mәlimdeui sol qylmystyq sayasattyng kórinisi .

QazPIY-ding aldynda qazirgi Panfilovshylar sayabaghy túr ghoy. Sol sayabaqta bolghan bir oqighany Mәriyam Hakimjanova apamyz óz esteliginde: «1932 jyly biz tehnikumnyng studentimiz. Týni boyy ashtan ólgen adamdar parkte, qala kóshelerinde jinalyp qalady. Tanghy alageuimde studentterdi shygharady. Biz ólikterdi arbagha tiyep alyp, qalanyng syrtyndaghy saygha aparyp tógip tastaymyz. Studentterding kýndelikti júmysy osylaysha qalany ashtan ólgenderden tazartu boldy. Bir kýni qyzdar bolyp, ólikterdi arbagha tiyep jýrgenimizde parkte aghashqa arqasyn sýiep, tip-tik bir iri shal otyrghanyn kórdik. Basynda túmaq, ýstinde belin buyp alghan ton. Ózi qimylsyz. Biz ólikterdi jinap jýrgendikten, tiri otyrghan adamdy kórip shoshyp kettik. Jaqyndap kelip qarasaq, ólip qalypty. Ýnile qaraghanymyzda, bir qolynda qysyp ústaghan dombyrasy, ekinshi qolyn da keudesine qysyp ústaghan eken, tonnyng ishki jaghynan kishkene nәrestening basy qyltiyady. Ol da ólip qalghan. Yaghni, ashtyq mendegen shal tik otyryp ólip ketken», - dep jazady.

- 1939 jyldary jýrgizilgen qúpiya sanaqtar boyynsha barlyq ónirde adam basy aitarlyqtay kemip jatqan kezde, asharshylyq pen repressiyany bastan ótkergen aralyqta Almaty halqynyng sany kerisinshe artypty. Búl - 1929 jyly Almatynyng astana bolyp jariyalanuy negizindegi kóshi-qonnyng әseri shyghar dep topshylaymyz...

- Almatydaghy asharshylyq turaly aita almaymyn. Men búl taqyrypty indete zerttegen emespin. Biraq, Jetisu ónirinde asharshylyq súmdyq boldy. Tipti, joldar boyynda adam jýre almaytynday jaghdaygha jetken. Búl turaly ashtyqpen kýresken sanauly qazaq sayasatkerlerining biri Oraz Jandosovtyng estelikterinde jazylghan. Jetisu qazaqtary búl jerde qayyr bolmaghannan keyin qyrghyz asqan. Qyrghyzdar ashtyqtan búratylghan aghayyn júrtqa memlekettik dengeyde kómek jasap, jýzdegen myng tonna astyq bólip, birshama eldi aman alyp qalghan. Múny men songhy jyldary qyrghyz tarihshylarynan estidim.

«Jay jatqan jer jau shaqyrady»

- Elbasy asharshylyqtyng 80 jyldyghyn atap ótuge tapsyrma berdi. Biraq, tarihta 1921 - 1922 jyldardaghy asharshylyq bolghanyn bilemiz. Osy eseppen biyl asharshylyqtyng 80 jyldyghyn emes, 90 jyldyghyn atap ótuimiz kerek siyaqty...

- 1932 jylghy asharshylyqta halyqtyng jappay qyrylyp qaluy mýmkin edi. Osynday jaghday qalyptasty. Óitkeni, Goloshekin basqarghan ókimet halyqtyng qolyndaghy mal-mýlki men azyq-týligin týgin qaldyrmay sypyryp alu sayasatyn jýrgizdi. Oghan jergilikti jandayshaptar, jas, nadan belsendiler otqa may qúya týsti. Mineki, nadandyqtyng bir qaupi - óz halqyna qarsy shabu.

«Genosiyd» - auyr sóz, bir halyqty qyrugha baghyttalghan sayasat. Ashtyqqa sayasy bagha beruden bizding sayasatkerler taysaqtaghanymen, kenestik biylikte shynymen sonday baghyt boldy. Óitkeni, Kremli barlyq ahualdy bilip otyrdy. Biraq, qazaqtyng qyrylghany, onyng jerining bosaghany bolishevikterge kerek boldy. Onyng nәtiyjesin keyin Hrushevting ózi kórsetti. Bosaghan jerge kelip tyng iygerudi bastady. Eger kommunister shynymen qazaqqa jany ashityn bolsa, asharshylyq kezinde shet elge ketken 1 million qazaqty nege tyng iygeruge qaytaryp alyp kelmedi?! Demek, asharshylyq qazaqqa qarsy jasalghan josparly sayasat boldy. Óitkeni, jerdi bosatyp, oghan ózge halyqtardy alyp kelu kerek edi. Solay boldy da, yaghni, búl sayasat tyng iygeru arqyly ayaqtaldy. Óz atamekeninen ketken milliondaghan qazaqty qaytaryp alu mýmkindigi bolsa da, kenestik biylik búl qadamgha barmady. Osy olqylyqtyng ornyn qazir toltyruymyz kerek. «Núrly kósh» baghdarlamasymen asharshylyq kezinde jat elge ketken úrpaqtarymyzdy qaytaryp aluymyz kerek. Biz 1920 - 1932 jyldary 4 million halyqtan ólidey airylsaq, qazir solardyng úrpaghynan tiriley airylu qaupi aldynda túrmyz. Endi on jyl ishinde olardy qaytaryp almaytyn bolsaq, odan keyin olar altyn berseng de Qazaqstangha kelmeytin bolady. Óitkeni, onyng tili, dili, dini ózgeredi. Ol qazaq bolmaydy. Qazirding ózinde Reseydegi qazaq jastary assimilyasiyagha týsti. Qytaydaghy qazaq mektepteri qytaylanyp ketti. Ózbekstanda qazaq mektepteri jabylyp jatyr. Mine, ýsh úly kórshimizde otyrghan 4 millionnan astam bauyrlarymyzdan tiriley airylyp qalu qaupi aldynda otyrmyz. Elimizding kóshi-qon sayasaty kónil kónshitpeydi. Kóshi-qon óz aldyna ministrlik boluy, memlekettik sayasattyng basym baghyttary soghan júmys isteui tiyis edi. Óitkeni, memleketting bolu-bolmauy halyqqa baylanysty ghoy. Jay jatqan jer jau shaqyrady. Kýnderding kýninde «jering keng eken, múnda halyq syimay jatqanda, azghantay halyq úlan-ghayyr jerde otyrsyndar, eger gumanizmge qarsy bolmasandar sәl әrirek, yghysyp otyryndar» deushiler tabyluy mýmkin. Sondyqtan, jer bos bolmauy kerek. Búl jerdi aman alyp qaludyng jalghyz joly - asharshylyqtan azyp-tozyp ketken qazaqty atajúrtqa qaytaru.

- Asharshylyqtyng 80 jyldyghyn atap ótu shenberinde «Qyzyl qyrghyn» atanghan genosidting negizgi aiypkerleri bolghan Goloshekin siyaqty terrorshylardyng úrpaqtary qazaq halqy aldynda keshirim súrauy qajet dep oilamaysyz ba?

- 1920 - 1932 jyldardaghy alapat qyrghyndy úiymdastyrushy - sol kezdegi bolisheviktik, әsirese, Qazaqstandaghy bolishevikter partiyasy. Onyng býgingi múrageri - Qazaqstan Kommunistik halyqtyq partiyasy. Sondyqtan, simvolikalyq týrde bolsa da búl partiyagha ashyq sot ótui kerek. Búl partiyagha  Qazaqstanda óz qyzmetin jýrgizuine tyiym salynuy, zannan tys dep jariyalanuy qajet. Óitkeni, partiyanyng jasaghan qiyanatynan, qanypezerliginen jarty qazaq qyryldy. Búghan kinәli - búrynghy Qazaqstan kommunistik partiyasy. Onyng múragerleri halyq aldynda ashyq týrde keshirim súrauy kerek. Sot arqyly bizding maqsatymyz - bir adamdy týrmege tyghu emes, kinәlining kim ekenin kórsetu. Shyn qúqyqtyq memlekette osylay bolugha tiyis. Óitkeni, ashtan ólgen 4 million halyqtyng ólimine kim jauap beredi? Ol 4 million shybyn emes qoy. Bir adam ólse de jauap beredi. Al, 4 million adamnyng ólimine, әriyne, sol kezde biylik basynda túrghan kompartiya jauap beredi. Demek, kompartiya Qazaqstanda zannan tys dep jariyalanyp, oghan qarghys aityluy kerek. Elimizde onyng ózi túrmaq, basqan izi qalmauy tiyis.

- Qalamyzda kompartiyanyng basshylaryna qoyylghan eskertkishterding keybiri әli túr...

- Zúlmat jyldary kompartiyanyng basshylyghynda bolghan birde-bir basshynyn, Leniyn, Staliyn, Dzerjinskiy, Kalininderding eshqaysysynyng eskertkishi elimizde túrmauy kerek. Ol eskertkishterdi aparyp qoqysqa  tastau kerek.

- Biz 31-mamyrdy - Sayasy qughyn-sýrgin qúrbandaryn eske alu kýni retinde atap ótemiz. Alayda, múnyng syrtynda asharshylyq qúrbandary qalyp qoyatyn siyaqty...

- Búl Zang 1995 jyly qabyldanghan. Zang jobasy Parlamentke joldanghan kezde «Asharshylyq jәne sayasy qughyn-sýrgin qúrbandaryn eske alu kýni» bolyp úsynylghan edi. Kommunistik zamannan qalghan ýrkektik pen qorqaqtyqtan «asharshylyq» degen sóz syzylyp qaldy. Biyl asharshylyqtyng 80 jyldyghyn atap ótu shenberinde Parlamentte búl mәsele qayta qaralyp, qayta tyndau boluy kerek dep oilaymyn. Osylaysha, 31-mamyr - «Asharshylyq jәne sayasy qughyn-sýrgin qúrbandaryn eske alu kýni» bolyp qalpyna keltirilui kerek. 4 million aruaqty syzyp tastaugha bolmaydy.

«Qazaq halqynyng damuyn 110 jylgha keyin shegerdi»

- «Bir kýn ashyqqannan qyryq kýn aqyl súrama» deydi qazaq. Birneshe jyl qatarynan oryn alghan, dýrkin-dýrkin qaytalanghan asharshylyq zúlmatynan últymyzdyng әbden sansyraghany anyq. Yaghni, kenes ókimeti qoldan jasaghan asharshylyqtyng zardaby men saldary turaly ne aitasyz?

- Asharshylyqtyng zardaby óte auyr boldy. Mamandar qazaq halqynyng damuyn 110 jylgha keyin shegerdi dep aityp jatyr. Mәselen, búl baghytta demograf-ghalym Maqash Tәtimovting tarihy derekterdi tauyp jariyalaudaghy enbegi zor. Bәrimiz de osynday ghalymdardyng  enbekterine sýienemiz. Asharshylyqtyng saldary qazaq halqynyng mәngilik problemasy bolyp qala beredi dep oilaymyn. Juyrda ghana Preziydentimiz Núrsúltan Ábishúly: «eger asharshylyq bolmaghanda biz qazir 45-50 million halyq bolyp otyrar edik», -  dedi. Eger biz qazir 45-50 million halyqty qúrap otyrsaq, dalamyz shyn mәninde osyghan layyq bolatyn. Kezinde halyq osy dalagha syimay otyrdy ghoy. Múhtar Áuezovting «Abay jolyn» oqysanyz, әrbir qúdyqqa, qystaugha talasyp otyrghan rulardyng nelikten syimay otyrghanyn andaugha bolady. Yaghni, sol zamanda qazaq óz jerin tolyq iygerip otyrdy. Biz qazir 45-50 milliondy qúraghan últ bolyp otyrsaq, sany jóninen әlemdegi úly últtardyng qatarynda bolar edik. Bizde til, dil, din problemasy da, últaralyq problemanyng da eshqaysysy bolmaghan bolar  edi. Óitkeni, sany kóp halyqqa keybir auytqular әser etpeydi, joyylu qaupi tónbeydi. Halyq sany kóp bolghan sayyn jahandanu da onyng janyn mazalamaydy. Al, sany azayghan sayyn últtyng tiline de, dinine de, qanynyng súiyluyna da, territoriyasyna da qauip tónedi. Memleketi qalt-qúlt etip túratynday әlsiz bolady. Yaghni, qauipting barlyghy halyq sanynyng azdyghynan shyghady. Búl - asharshylyqtyng demografiyalyq sayasy saldary. Ekinshiden, múnyng psihologiyalyq jaghynan ýlken zardaby boldy. Biz, qazaq, óte erkin halyq edik. Tóbesindegi Tәnirge ghana tabynghan er minezdi halyq edik. Al, 1932 - 1938 jyldary halyq jer betinde bolmaghan dozaqy súmdyqtan ótti. Ash adamdar birin-biri, óz balalaryn jep jatty. Yaghni, halyqtyng esi auysyp ketti, qoryqty dep bilemin. Qoryqqan halyq komformist, ynghayshyl bolyp shygha keledi. 1950, 1960, 1970 jyldary halqymyzdyng jappay orystanuy, bala-shaghasyn tek orys mektebine berui, qazaqtyng «qazaq» degen ataudan shoshuy, ózinen ózi jerui, orys bolugha tyrysuy, barlyghy 1920 - 1930 jyldardaghy asharshylyq apatynyng psihologiyagha úrghan saldary. Yaghni, odan keyingi halyq tek kýn kóruge ghana, qara tobyrgha ainalugha shaq qaldy. Qara tobyr degenimiz jegen as-suyn ghana biledi. Osynday psihologiya bizde kópke deyin saqtaldy. Múny men óz jaghdayymnan bilemin. Bizding әke-sheshelerimiz 1970 jyldargha deyin ókimetting bidayyn satyp alugha bolmasa da, shopyrlargha aqsha berip, qambagha toltyryp qoyatyn. Bir kýni asharshylyq bolady dep kýtkendey ýreylenip jýretin, asharshylyq  endi bolmaydy degenge senbeytin...

Últty qorghaushylar azayyp, últty qorlaushylar kóbeygen zaman boldy

1920 - 1932 jylghy asharshylyqtar halyqtyng sanasyn sansyratyp tastady. 1930 - 1940 jyldardaghy birin-biri kórsetui qoryqqan adamnyng qúldyq psihologiyasynan shyghady. 1950 jyldardaghy satqyndyq, últqa qarsy intelliygensiyanyng óz shabuyly, últtyng qorghaushylarynyng azayyp, últty qorlaushylardyng kóbengi tragediya emes pe?! Osy jaghday Stalinning kózi tiri kezinde oryn aldy, onyng zardaptary odan әri sozylyp, halyqtyng bala-shaghasyn orystandyruymen kórindi. Qazir bizding aramyzda millionday shala qazaq jýrse, olar qoryqqan komformist intelliygensiyanyng bala-shaghalary dep bilemin. Olar qazaq boludan qoryqty, taghy da últshyl dep ústay bastay ma dep ýreylendi. «Zamangha adam kýilemek, zamany ony iylemek» degen Abaydyng sózindegidey, ókinishke oray,  intelliygensiya zamangha kýiledi, iydeologiya ony  iyledi. Kýrese almady. 1932 - 1933 jyldarghy asharshylyqtan, 1937 - 1938 jyldary oryn alghan qudalaudan halyqtyng ruhy syndy. Áriyne, búl dýrbelennen basqa halyqtar da ótti. Biraq, asharshylyq qazaq ýshin últtyq qasiret boldy. Onyng saldarynan әli kýnge qútyla almay kelemiz. Qazaqtyng boyyndaghy últsyzdyq, tilsizdik, dinsizdik, keyde satqyndyq degen jaman әreketterdi ushyqtyrghan, komformist jasaghan Staliyn, Goloshekin basqarghan bolisheviktik dozaq dep bilemin. Shyndyghynda, múnday dozaqtan halyqtyng aman ótui mýmkin emes edi. Áyteuir, Qúday saqtap, jarty halyq qalsaq ta aman ótippiz. Sondyqtan, búl bizding tarihymyzdaghy eng qaraly, últtyq qasiret. Eshqashan úmytylmaugha tiyis Últtyng Úly Qasireti.

Súhbattasqan - Duman ANASh

"Abay-aqparat"