Qos palataly, hәm «kóp partiyaly» parlamentting kýzgi sessiyasynan el-júrt dýr silkinetindey janalyq kýtken-di. Biraq tәuelsiz sarapshylardyng ýkimet otstavkagha ketip, auys-týiisting kókesi bolady dep aldyn ala jasaghan boljamdary da zaya ketti. Deputattardyng aldynda jarty saghatqa jeter-jetpes bayandama jasaghan preziydent Nazarbaevtyng sózinde qara qazaqqa qaraylas túsy bar-joghyn el-júrt ózi sarapqa sala jatar, biz óz tarapymyzdan qonyr kýzdegi biylik sayasatynyng keypi qalay bolar eken degen niyetpen sayasattanushy Rasul JÚMALY myrzany әngimege tartqan edik. Qoyylghan saualdyng jauabyn siz de oqynyz, oqyrman qauym!

- Dýisenbi kýngi Núrsúltan Nazarbaevtyng parlamenttegi 25 minutqa sozylghan sózining úzyn-yrghasy әdettegi bir audan-oblys әkimining bayandamasynan ary asa almady desedi tәuelsiz sarapshylar. El ishi mamyrajay tirlik keship túrghanday keyip tanytqan preziydent ayaq astynan otandyq bizneske jol ashu, gaz tasymaly, auylsharuashylyghyna qatysty mәselelerden asa almady. Búl әldebir oblys әkimining selektorlyq jiyny siyaqty «plenarka» boldy degenge kelisesiz be?

Qos palataly, hәm «kóp partiyaly» parlamentting kýzgi sessiyasynan el-júrt dýr silkinetindey janalyq kýtken-di. Biraq tәuelsiz sarapshylardyng ýkimet otstavkagha ketip, auys-týiisting kókesi bolady dep aldyn ala jasaghan boljamdary da zaya ketti. Deputattardyng aldynda jarty saghatqa jeter-jetpes bayandama jasaghan preziydent Nazarbaevtyng sózinde qara qazaqqa qaraylas túsy bar-joghyn el-júrt ózi sarapqa sala jatar, biz óz tarapymyzdan qonyr kýzdegi biylik sayasatynyng keypi qalay bolar eken degen niyetpen sayasattanushy Rasul JÚMALY myrzany әngimege tartqan edik. Qoyylghan saualdyng jauabyn siz de oqynyz, oqyrman qauym!

- Dýisenbi kýngi Núrsúltan Nazarbaevtyng parlamenttegi 25 minutqa sozylghan sózining úzyn-yrghasy әdettegi bir audan-oblys әkimining bayandamasynan ary asa almady desedi tәuelsiz sarapshylar. El ishi mamyrajay tirlik keship túrghanday keyip tanytqan preziydent ayaq astynan otandyq bizneske jol ashu, gaz tasymaly, auylsharuashylyghyna qatysty mәselelerden asa almady. Búl әldebir oblys әkimining selektorlyq jiyny siyaqty «plenarka» boldy degenge kelisesiz be?

- Bәlkim, bayandamashy eldegi basymdyqtardy osylaysha týsinetin shyghar - búl onyng erki men qúzyry. Alayda osy orayda birneshe jaytqa nazar audarghan jón. Aldymen belgili bir bayandamanyng úzaq ne qysqa boluy turasynda. Meninshe, manyzdysy ol emes. Aytalyq, kezinde Kubanyng úzaq jylghy basshysy Fiydeli Kastro óz bayandamalarymen júrtty zaryqtyryp bes-alty, tipti segiz saghat boyy oqityn. Kubanyng býgingi syiqyna qaraghanda, onysynan nәtiyje shyqqan joq. Nemese Saud Arabiyasynyng búrynghy patshasy Fahdty alayyq: ministrler kenesin jylyna eki-ýsh mәrte ghana jinaytyn. Sondaghy sóileytini az degende 15-20 minut. Biraq aitqan sózining barlyghy altyngha teng boldy jәne sózi men isi tyghyz sabaqtasatyn edi. Esesine, búl elde sheksiz, úshy-qiyry joq jinalystar ótpeytin, birin-biri qaytalaytyn, qaptaghan sheneunikterdi ghana emes, mamandardyng ózin shatastyryp, aqyr ayaghynda bos sóz bolyp qalatyn tom-tom sheshimder men baghdarlamalar qabyldanbaytyn. Al endi sol Saudiyanyng býgingi qalpyn kóreyik - ekonomikalyq damu, әleumettik qamsyzdandyru, ozyq tehnologiyalardy iygeru, halyqtyng әl-auqaty, basqa da baghyttar boyynsha dýniyedegi kósh ilgeri memleket bolyp sanalady. Búl arada ekinshi mәsele tuyndaydy. Ol qoyylghan núsqaulardy is jýzine asyru mәselesi, sebebi qanday keremet bolsa da, orta jolda qalghan baghdarlamalardyng qúny kók tiyn. Al kóterilgen basymdyqtardyng ózektiligine kelsek, ras, kópshilik songhy kezderi elde oryn alghan qandy oqighalar, lankestikting etek jangy, baghanyng sharyqtauy sekildi taqyryptardyng qozghaluyn ne bolmasa iri kadrlyq ózgeristerdi kýtken edi. Olay bolmauy nelikten degen ritorikalyq súraq tuady. Bәlkim, eldi odan ary dýrliktirmeu ýshin, al atalghan jәne basqa da atyshuly oqighalardyng aldyn aludyng qamy shyghar. Biraq «kelisip pishken ton kelte bolmas» demekshi, múnyng eng útymdy әdis ekenine kýmәnim kóp.

- Ádette parlamenttegi kýzgi (qos palatanyng kez kelgen otyrysyndaghy) jiynyndaghy Nazarbaevtyng sózi tikeley efir arqyly taratylatyn, al biyl búl ýrdis jabyq jaghdayda ótti. Sebebi ne dep aitar ediniz?

- Aytarlyqtay jabyq jaghdaydy óz basym bayqamadym. Preziydent bayandamasynynng dybystyq ta, beyne núsqasyn, zaldaghy deputattar men ministrlerding otyrysyn, tipti olardyng BAQ-targha bergen súhbattaryn sol kýni teledidardan kórgennen keyin, kelesi kýni gazetterden oqyghan son, osynday baylamym bar.

- Aynalasy eki-ýsh aidyng ishinde әlemge әshkere bolghan qandy oqighalar, birer apta búrynghy Atyrau oblysy әkimining qyzmetten bosatyluy býtindey sayasy elitanyng ishin dýrliktirgennen keyin, biylikte auys-týiis bolady degen boljam da dolbar kýide qaldy. Búl - Nazarbaevtyng kezekti bir sayasy qúityrqy әreketi me, әlde preziydent biylik basyndaghylardy auystyrugha qúlyqty emes dep oilaysyz ba?

- Dәl býgingidey jaghdayda, mening payymdauymsha, kadrlyq auys-týiisterding eki jaghy bar. Birinshiden, eger, aitalyq, osydan 5-10 jyl búryn әkim ne ministr auyssa, halyqtyng basym bóligi búl ózgeristerge belgili bir ýmit artatyn: «Endi jaghday týzeletin shyghar, osy adamnyng qolynan kelip qalar» degen synayda. Áytse de, kópshilik jaghdayda osynday ýmitter aqtalmaghannan qarapayym azamattardyng qanday da kadrlyq taghayyndaulargha degen senimi azaydy. Birqatary onday ózgeristerdi qoghamdyq pikirdi basqagha audarudy kózdeytin kózboyaushylyq, endi bireuleri kadrlyq auys-týiisterding astaryn elding iygiligi emes, jekelegen yqpaldy toptardyng kýresi retinde qabylday bastady. Mәselening ekinshi jaghy, meninshe, bastauyn songhy eki-ýsh jyldyqtan alady. Onyng deni - biylikting qanday da, әsirese belsendi ortalar talap etken kadrlyq sheshimderdi qabyldaudy óz әlsizdigining kórsetkishi dep tanuy. Tipti solay bola qalghannyng ózinde, bizding jii bayqaytynymyz - әldebir lauazym iyesin resmy týrde ornynan taydyrghanda, onyng jibergen kemshilikteri, ne jasaghan bylyqtaryna bola emes, keydi tipti syn kótermeytin dәiektemeler keltiredi. Mәselen, basqa júmysqa auysuyna baylanysty nemese tepse temir ýzetin sheneunikting densaulyghy syr bergeni siyaqty. Kim kimdi aldaydy - belgisiz, sondyqtan múny da el senimin arttyratyn әreketter qataryna qosu qiyn. Osynday jaghdayda keybir kadrlyq taghayyndaulardy joqqa shygharmaymyn, biraq olar bolghan kýnning ózinde iri sayasy ózgeristerge әkelmeytini anyq. Biylik oghan barmaydy.

- Aqordanyng aua rayyn rettep otyrmyn degen sheneunik Musinning ózining basyna qara búlt ýiirilgeni jóninde tәuelsiz aqparattar legi az jazyp jatqan joq. Dәl osy joly preziydent әkimshiligining jetekshisi ornynan ketetinin de sol sarap iyeleri kesip aitqan bolatyn. Degenmen, taghy bir derek kózining aituynsha, preziydent Musindi bir jarlyqpen bosata almaytyn jaghdaygha jetken kórinedi. Mәselen, keybir derekkózderding aituyna qaraghanda, býginde Musin preziydentting ózin «mengerip» alghan siyaqty... Osy pikirlerding qanshalyqty jany bar?

- Ókinishtisi - býgingi Qazaqstanda sayasy boljamdar keleli ghylymy saraptamany emes, kóbine qúmalaq shashudy, ne bolmasa «bir әjey aitqan edi» degendi elestetedi. Sebep - shynayy aqparattyng tapshylyghy, biylik ókilderining halyqtan alshaqtyghy jәne olardyng qogham aldyndaghy jauapsyzdyghynyng tómen boluynda. Tiyisti aqparat, odan qorytylatyn taldau bolmaghanda, olardyng ornyn týrli qaueset pen alyp-qashpa dýniyeler basady ghoy. Bizding qalpymyz osy. Óz basym pәlenshe keledi eken, onyng ornyn «ananyng adamy» bolyp sanalatyn «pәlenbay» basady eken degen әngimelerge әues emespin. Biraq manyzdy kadrlyq úigharymdar jabyq esik jaghdayynda qabyldana bergen sayyn, biylik sapasynyng tómendeytinine shýbә keltirmeymin. Áriyne, sonymen shektelse iygi, biraq atalghanday olqylyqtardyng kesirin halyq tartatyny qynjyltady.

- Taghy bir qoghamda bar pikirlerge qaraghanda, Nazarbaev ózi jasaghan jýiening qúlyna ainalyp, endigi kezekte lauazymdy túlghany aldyn ala aqparattyq «dayyndyqsyz», sayasy intrigasyz bosata almaytyn jaghdaygha jetken siyaqty.

- Aldyndaghy әngimening jalghasy ispettes súraq eken. Naqty aitarym joq. Alayda qaytadan eki mәselege nazar audarsam deymin. Alghashqysy - әlemdegi aldynghy qatarly elderding tәjiriybesine ýnilsek, olardyng basshylary qanshama danyshpan bolsa da, sol elderding birauyzdylyghy men gýldenuin qamtamasyz etip otyrghan tetik - sayasy jýie ekenin kóremiz. Adam bolghan son, әdil sayasy kýreste basshylar auysyp otyrady, alayda atalmysh sayasy jýiesi, basqasha aitqanda qanqasy berik bolghandyqtan, memleket birizdi damuyn túraqty týrde jalghastyra beredi. Kerisinshe bolghan kýnde memleket hәm halyq ahualdyng qojayynyna emes, boljamgha kelmeytin berekesizdikterding qúlyna ainaluy әbden yqtimal.

Aviasiyada «qayta almau nýktesi» degen úghym bar. Ol úshaqqa qúiylghan janarmaydyng jartysy sarqylyp, al aua rayy tym qolaysyz jaghdayda qoldanylady. Múndaghy basty gәp - belgili bir nýktege deyin úshyp shyqqan әuejaygha qaytyp, osylaysha әue kemesi men onyng ishindegi jolaushylardyng qauipsizdigin saqtap qalugha bolady. Biraq odan asqannan keyin tәuekelge bel buudan basqa laj joq. Mening aitpaghym - әr jaghdaydy týzetu ýshin, alghy sharttar ghana emes, naqty uaqyty bolady. Ol uaqyt shekteuli, әngime baghana sóz bolghan úshaqqa, ne adam aghzasynyng asqynghan auruyna, ne tútas memleketting taghdyryna qatysty bolsyn. Sondyqtan uaqytty ozdyryp almay, órkeniyetti ózgeristerden kesh qalmasaq iygi?!

- Aqordadaghy bizding taghy bir derekkózimizding aituyna qaraghanda, preziydent kezekti kadr tazalau nauqanyna dayyndalyp ýlgermegen siyaqty. Ol auys-týiister tayau kýnderi jýzege asatyn siyaqty...

- Solay bolsyn-aq delik. Biraq dәl býgin óz basym qanday da auys-týiister, onyng ishinde ýkimetting otstavkagha ketui bolsyn, parlamentting taratyluy bolsyn iri ózgeristerge әkeledi degen ýmitten әldeqashan qol ýzdim. Osy uaqytqa deyin ýkimet 8 mәrte janadan jasaqtaldy, parlament te búl kórsetkish boyynsha qalyspady, alayda nәtiyjesi qanday boldy? Qateleskim-aq keledi, alayda eldegi әleumettik jaghdaydy, әsirese shaghyn qalalar men auyl-aymaqty alsaq, kenes zamanynan qalyp, tityghy bitken kommunaldy infraqúrylymdy, jastar isterin, júmyssyzdyqty, baghalardyng jyldan-jylgha sharyqtauyn jalpy ishki ónimge para-par syrtqy qaryzdy, әskerdegi kelensizdikterdi, týbimizge jetip bolghan jemqorlyqty, otandyq tauar óndirushilerding ayanyshty halin, basqa da salalardy alsaq, osynday ashy qorytyndygha keluge mәjbýrmiz. Basqasyn bylay qoyghanda, HHI ghasyrda ómir sýrip, onyng ýstine tabighy baylyqtarynyng arqasynda әleuetti zor el bola túra, el ishin jalghastyratyn taqtayday týzu tas joldargha, auyz su men gazgha zәrulik migha syimaytyn týsinik qoy.

Kezinde Arab Ámirlikterinde birer jyl júmys atqarghanym bar. Kishigirim bolsa da, búl memleket pen Qazaqstannyng arasynda úqsas tústar az emes: mәdeniyet, din, kóshpendi ómir salty, jer asty baylyqtaryna kenelui, halqynyng azdyghy, syrtqy kýshterge tәueldiligi, taghysyn taghy... Al erekshelik bolsa, tәuelsizdigin alghan 1971 jyly Ámirlikterding jaghdayy bizben salystyrghanda әldeqayda mýshkil edi. Halqynyng 99 payyzy kedeylik pen joqshylyqtyng kýnin keshken, dәl sonday payyzy joghary týgili, orta bilimnen júrday, әleumettik qamsyzdandyru tetikteri, tas joldary, elektr jelileri atymen joq, balyq aulau men mal ósiruden basqa eshqanday sharuashylyq, ne ónerkәsip kózderi joqtyng qasy bolghan el edi. Sharasyzdyqtan alghashqy jyldary sheteldik múnay kompaniyalarmen tepe-teng týse almaytyn sharttargha qol qoygha da tura keldi. 1973 jyly múnaydy satudan týsken alghash tabysyn alghanda, Ámirlikterding negizin qalaghan Zaed shayh el azamattaryna týgeldey osy baylyqty tendey ýlestirip berdi. Jay ýlestirip qoymay, arnayy mamandar jaldap, әr azamatqa alghan aqshasyn qalay paydalanghan tiyimdi, bank salymdaryn qalaysha salu qajet, óz biznesin ashu joldary, basqa da mәselelerdi týsindirdi. Arada 20 jyl ótkende Ámirlikter barlyq arab memleketterin basyp ozdy, múnaygha, basqa da tabighy baylyqtargha 100 payyz memlekettik baqylau ornatty. Orta bilim alghandardyng mólsherin 100, joghary bilim alghandardyng mólsherin 88 payyzgha jetkizdi. Joq jerden keremet qalalar boy kóterdi, sapaly joldar salyndy, әleumettik qamsyzdandyru boyynsha eng ýzdik standarttar engizildi. Arada taghy 20 jyl ótkende damu jәne ómir dengeyine qatysty Ámirlikter kýlli әlemning kóshbasshysyna ainaldy. Býgingi tanda osy elding әr jetinshi azamaty dollargha shaqqanda millioner bolyp tabylady. Bireu osy aitylghandy tanghajayyp, eshkim senbeytin jaghday deui mýmkin. Biraq men ýshin tanday qaghatynday eshnәrse joq - osylay boluy kerek, yaghny bay elding azamattary bay boluy - tabighy zandy qúbylys. Al kerisinshe bolghany, jagha ústatarlyq tanghajayyptyng «kókesi» der edim.

- Birer ay búryn Darigha Nazarbaeva parlamentting kýzgi bas qosuynda dýr silkindiredi-mis degen boljam jasalghan edi. Kerisinshe preziydentting qyzy «eldegi әrtýrli qandy oqighalargha bola, ýkimetti auystyrudyng qajeti joq, odan da Arqankergenge baryp, shekarany sholyp qaytugha, tabighaty tamasha zastava manynda demalyp qaytu da artyq emes» depti. Eldegi qazirgi sayasy jaghday «demalyp qaytugha» layyq dep oilaysyz ba?

- Demalysty qoya túratyn zaman әldeqashan keldi. Asyra toqmeyilsuding de qisyny shamaly. Ómirding bәri toy ótkizip, saltanat qúrumen shektelmeytinin songhy on aida bolghan qandy oqighalar kórsetti. Múnyng bәrin Allanyng eskertuleri dep týsingen abzal, әri odan qorytyndy jasamasa, jibergen qatelikterdi boldyrmaugha kýsh salmasa, is nasyrgha shabatyny anyq.

Ómirding ózi sayasat qoy. Búl túrghyda «siz sayasatpen ainalyspasanyz, sayasat sizben ainalysady» degen naqyl jii aitylady. Ádette osy naqyldy biz qarapayym halyqqa qatysty qoldanugha beyimbiz. Alayda memleket dengeyinde oryn alghan olqylyqtardy moyyndap, ondaylardy der kezinde sheship otyru - búl da sayasat. Olay bolsa, sayasattaghy nemqúraylylyqpen ainalagha kóz júma qarau - qarapayym halyqqa da, biylikke de keshirilmeytin mәsele.

- Tayauda Atyrauda eks-әkimge bola jik-japar әngime shyqqanyn bilesiz. Aqyry Núrlan Nyghmatullin bastaghan top «preziydentting tapsyrmasymen keldik» dep, Bergey Rysqaliyevti qorghaghan toptyng aptyghyn basty. Osy jәitti qalay saralaugha bolady?

- Negizi - óte qauipti ýrdisten beleng alyp otyrghangha úqsaydy. Áytpese, jalghyz ghana oblystyn, onyng ózinde saylanghan emes, taghayyndalghan әkimning júmystan bosatyluyna baylanysty sonsha kiykiljing tuynday ma? Búl tústaghy sebepter qatarynda, meninshe joghary mansaptargha taghayyndaularda jariyalylyqtyng joqtyghyn ataugha bolady. Kim nendey jetistikteri ýshin osynday mәrtebege ie boldy, ónirdi kóteruge qatysty onyng qanday da bir baghdarlamasy bar ma, órkeniyetti memleketterde mindetti týrde qoyylatyn súraqtar bizde әdette jauapsyz qalady. Esesine jii estiytinimiz, jalghyz ghana «preziydentting tapsyrmasy boyynsha». Biraq búl jetkiliksiz emes pe? Ekinishiden birizdilikting joqtyghy. Qazir belgili bolyp otyrghan bylyqtar tek Atyrauda oryn aldy, qalghan aimaqtarda jaghday sudan taza, sýtten aq degenge kim senedi? Álbette kez kelgen, әsirese jauapkershligi mol mansap baqylaudy talap etedi. Biraq bizding jaghdayda әkimdi taghayyndaushy Astana alys, al jergilikti mәslihat, jekelegen atqaminerler qauqarsyz, qayta әkimge tәueldi. Múny da negizgi sebepterding birine jatqyzugha bolady. Áriyne, ortalyq pen aimaqtar, qala men auyl arasyndaghy óreskel aiyrmashylyq ta eskerusiz qalady. Ásirese osynday jaghday elimizding negizgi baylyghyn óndirip otyrghan batys oblystargha tәn jәne elding birkelki damuyna, ózara renish pen qarama-qayshylyqtardyng tuyndamasyna kepil bola almaydy. Jәne songhysy, tek basqagha siltey bermey, ózimizden kórgen de jón shyghar. Menzep otyrghanym, әsire momyndyghymyz, zandy qúqyqtarymyzdy qorghay almauymyz, azamattyq belsendilikting jetispeui, t.b. Key kezderi әkim-qaralargha baylanysty el auzynda jýrgen mynaday pikirdi estip qalatynymyz ras : «memlekettik aqshany jymqyrghan da shyghar, nesi bar eken, bastysy qala ne oblysty damytugha da ýles qosty ghoy. Áldebireuler ony da jasamaydy, oilaghandary - ózining qara basy. Qayta sonysyna tәubә». Osydan-aq jemqorlyq ataulynyng qanymyzgha qanshalyqty sinip qalghanyn kóremiz.

- Biylghy kýzgi-qysqy sayasy nauqanda Qazaqstan oppozisiyasy әldebir dәrmen kórsete ala ma?

- Ras, oppozisiyagha, zayyrly, demokratiyalyq oppozisiyagha taghylyp otyrghan min az emes. Onyng negizi bar da shyghar. Dese de, payymdauymsha, býgingi oppozsiya ózining otansýigishtigin, halqymen birge ekenin, qoghamdy mazalaghan dertterdi órkeniyetti jolmen sheshuge yntaly ekenin shama-sharqynsha dәleldedi. Talay ret eskertti de, aiqaylady da, sóitip jýrip qysymgha úshyrady, bas bostandyghynan aiyrylghandary az emes. Sonda min kimnen, aqylgha shaqyrghandardan ba, әlde әdil sózge qúlaq aspaghandardan ba?

Osylay jalghasa berse, kýnderding bir kýninde órkeniyetti oppozisiyanyng ornyn óktem jәne asyra silteushi kýshter iyelenbesine kim kepil? Men ýshin anyghy bireu - jaqyn jyldarda elimizdegi eng sheshushi rólge jastar, negizinen 17-27 jastaghy azamattarymyz iyelik etedi. Olardyng qatarynda qarausyz qalghan, júmyssyzdyq pen qoghamdaghy әdiletsizdikten basqa da qiynshylyqtargha úrynyp ashynghandary az emes. Ras, tiyisti bilim alyp, ayaghynan tik túryp ketken jastar da az emes. Biraq olar da el men jer taghdyryna tolghanbay, baryna tolyq qanaghattanyp otyr dep sanamaymyn. Basty mәsele - osy jastarymyz kimning nemese nendey qúndylyqtar men mýddelerding jeteginde ketetindiginde.

Baqytgýl MÁKIMBAY,

«D»

«Obshestvennaya pozisiya»

(proekt «DAT» № 30 (158)  06 qyrkýiek 2012 jyl