Raqym AYYPÚLY,
«Jebeu» respublikalyq qoghamdyq birlestigining atqarushy diyrektory:

- Agha, osy uaqytqa deyin Qytaydan elge oralghan qandastarymyz eger bala-shaghasy kәmeletke tolmasa, balalaryn «kepildikke, amanatqa» qaldyrghanday, Qytayda qaldyryp keldi. Áli de solay. Búl ne súmdyq? Múny sheshuding zandy tetikteri bolmaghany ma?
- QHR-dyng «Shekaradan kirip-shyghu turaly» zany bar. Onda shetelge birjolata qonys audaratyn adamdargha sol elding qúziretti organdary maqúldaghan tuystarynyng shaqyrtuy boluy qajettigi aiqyn jazylghan. Tuysshylap yaghny jeke saparmen Qytaydan Qazaqstangha keletinderding balalary kәmelettik jasqa tolmasa tólqújat berilmeydi. Qazaqstangha birjolata qonys audarsa da solay. Balalarynyng tólqújaty bolmaghandyqtan, qandastarymyz ózimen birge elge alyp kele almaydy. Balasyn kәmeletke tolghansha senimdi bireuge tabystap ketuge mәjbýr. Osynday jýrek syzdatar auyr jaghdaylardy Qytaydan keletin qandastarymyz úzaq jyldan beri bastan keshirip keledi. Mәsele adam taghdyryna baylanysty bolghandyqtan da, tipti jat bireu emes, óz qandastarymyz bolghandyqtan da bizdegi qúziretti oryndar búl mәseleni sózbúidagha salmay, sheshui qajet qoy.

Raqym AYYPÚLY,
«Jebeu» respublikalyq qoghamdyq birlestigining atqarushy diyrektory:

- Agha, osy uaqytqa deyin Qytaydan elge oralghan qandastarymyz eger bala-shaghasy kәmeletke tolmasa, balalaryn «kepildikke, amanatqa» qaldyrghanday, Qytayda qaldyryp keldi. Áli de solay. Búl ne súmdyq? Múny sheshuding zandy tetikteri bolmaghany ma?
- QHR-dyng «Shekaradan kirip-shyghu turaly» zany bar. Onda shetelge birjolata qonys audaratyn adamdargha sol elding qúziretti organdary maqúldaghan tuystarynyng shaqyrtuy boluy qajettigi aiqyn jazylghan. Tuysshylap yaghny jeke saparmen Qytaydan Qazaqstangha keletinderding balalary kәmelettik jasqa tolmasa tólqújat berilmeydi. Qazaqstangha birjolata qonys audarsa da solay. Balalarynyng tólqújaty bolmaghandyqtan, qandastarymyz ózimen birge elge alyp kele almaydy. Balasyn kәmeletke tolghansha senimdi bireuge tabystap ketuge mәjbýr. Osynday jýrek syzdatar auyr jaghdaylardy Qytaydan keletin qandastarymyz úzaq jyldan beri bastan keshirip keledi. Mәsele adam taghdyryna baylanysty bolghandyqtan da, tipti jat bireu emes, óz qandastarymyz bolghandyqtan da bizdegi qúziretti oryndar búl mәseleni sózbúidagha salmay, sheshui qajet qoy.
- Álbette. Songhy 4-5 jylda kósh qantarylyp qaldy dep shulap jýrmiz. Sizdinshe kóshi-qon shaqyrtuynyng tórt jyldan beri «zansyz dep» toqtatylu sebebi nede? Osy saualmen «Jebeu» respublikalyq qoghamdyq birlestigining tabaldyryghyn tozdyryp jýrgen azamattar az emes shyghar...
- «Bizding qoghamdyq birlestik 2009 jyly qúryldy. Kóshi-qon mәselesindegi qúqyqtyq tetikterdi, zang jýzinde sheshuge barymyzdy salyp kele jatyrmyz. «Kóshi-qon shaqyrtuy» degenimiz - Adam qúqyghyna baylanysty Halyqaralyq paktileri negizinde bólinip-jarylghan otbasylardyng osyndaghy tuystary Qytayda qalghan tuystaryna shaqyrtu jiberip, júmyspen jәne baspanamen qamtamasyz etemin dep, notarialdyq rastalghan, kepildik haty. Osy shaqyrtugha qúziretti organdar kelisim beretin. Syrtqy ister ministrligi shetelge jiberilgen osy qújatqa «zandy» dep maqúldap, óz mórin basatyn. Osynday qújatpen elge 1999 jyldan bastap san myndaghan otbasy kóship keldi. 4-5 jyl búryn Jazbek Ábdiyev Kóshi-qon komiytetin basqaryp túrghan kezde kóshi-qon shaqyrtuyn ayaqasty toqtatyp tastady. Ne sebepti, qanday qúqyqtyq negizde toqtatylghany turaly biz kóp izdendik. Ol kisi «Kóshi-qon shaqyrtuyn rәsimdemender», - dep tek auyzsha búiryq bergen, sóitip kósh toqtaghan. Shaqyrtudy qayta jolgha qoydy talap etsek, kezinde Kóshi-qon komiytetin basqarghan Qabylsayat Ábishev: «Shaqyrudyng ýsh týri ghana bar. Tuysqandyq shaqyru, oqugha shaqyru, bir úiymdar atynan júmys babymen enbek kýshi esebinde shaqyru. Al memleket kóshi-qon shaqyruy degendi jasamaydy. Birneshe jyl búryn Qazaqstanda onday shaqyrudyng bolghany belgili. Sol arqyly Qytaydan biraz qazaq qonys audardy. 2000 jyldardyng basynda Syrtqy ister ministrligining birqatar qyzmetkeri, olardyng ishinde Qonyrbaev Uәlihan bar, kóshi-qon shaqyruyn úiymdastyryp, oghan memlekettik mórdi basatyn bolghan eken. Biraq búl eshqanday qújatpen rettelmegen. Tek patriottyq sezimning jeteginen tuyndaghan. Ol kelisim arqyly bireu Qytaydan tuysqanyn shaqyrsa, memleket oghan kelisimin beremiz degen mór basyp berip otyrghan. Búl halyqaralyq sayasatqa say bolmaghandyqtan ózinen-ózi toqtaghan», - dedi. ("Týrkistan" gazeti, №09 (03.03.2011). Taghy birde: «Núrly kósh» baghdarlamasy boyynsha bizding komiytetting atynan hat jazyp jiberdik, búiyrsa kelip qalady» - dedi. Biz ol kisige: «Múnday shaqyrtugha Qytay óz azamattaryn jibere salmaydy. Qandastarymyzdy shaqyrtudyng búrynghy joly tiyimdi», - dep týsindirdik. Ol kisi týsinbedi nemese týsingisi kelmedi-au deymin. Qoyshy әiteuir, sonynda komiytet taratylyp, IIM-ne qosyldy. IIM-ne de biz deputattar arqyly atalghan kóshi-qon shaqyrtuynyng qanday zansyzdyghy bar, zansyzdyghy bolsa týsindirinizder», - dep talap qoydyq. Kóshi-qon shaqyrtuyn qayta jolgha qoy - uaqyt talaby. Óitkeni bólinip-jarylghan otbasylardyng qosyluy - Halyqaralyq Adam qúqyqtaryna baylanysty paktileri negizinde BÚÚ-nyng aumaghynda qaralghan mәsele. Eger ol jaqta qandastarymyz qylmysker, ekstremist bolmasa, eshkim kedergi jasamauy kerek qoy. Al jaqynda ghana ornynan alynghan komiytet tóraghasy Ghibratolla Dosqaliyev: «Kóshi-qon shaqyrtuyn zansyz bolghany ýshin toqtattyq», - deydi. Naqty qanday zansyzdyq? Ony týsindire almaydy. Týsindiruge mýmkindigi de joq. Óitkeni Qazaqstan Ýkimeti Adam qúqyqtaryna baylanysty Halyqaralyq mindetteme alghan. Bólip-jarylghan otbasylardyng qosyluy eshqanday zangha qayshy emes. Eger tuystary: «Myna kisiler mening tuystarym, olardy kóshirip әkelip, júmyspen jәne baspanamen qamtamasyz etem dep, qúziretti oryndardyng maqúldanghan móri basylghan shaqyrtu qaghaz jiberse, Qytay qandastarymyzgha kóship ketuge tólqújat beredi. Kóshi-qon polisiyasy komiytetining jaqyndaghy jauabyna qaraghanda, biz múny jete týsine almappyz. «Sol sebepti zandylyghyn anyqtau maqsatynda prokuraturanyng tekseruine jiberdik. Áli jauap kelgen joq», - deydi. Zang boyynsha is-qaghazdaryn qarau tәrtibi bir aidan aspauy kerek. Al «berdik» degenine de eki aidan asyp barady. Nege jauap bolmay jatqanyn týsine almay otyrmyz.
- Kýni keshe Dýniyejýzi qazaqtary qauymdastyghynda ótken dóngelek ýstelde qauymdastyq tóraghasynyng birinshi orynbasary Talghat Mamashev «Oralmandardy úrghanym bar...» dep salypty dep basylymdar shulap jatyr. Sol jiynda siz de boldynyz ghoy. Mamashevting múnysy nesi?
- 6 qyrkýiek kýni Dýniyejýzi qazaqtary qauymdastyghy «Etnikalyq kóshi-qon: qúryltay sheshimderi jәne jana zan» atty dóngelek ýstel ótkizdi. Bardyq. Dóngelek ýstelde biraz mәseleler aitylyp, óz sheshimin tabar dep ýmittengenbiz. Sóitsek, sol bayaghy asyp-tasyghan Talghat Mamashev ministrlik ókilderinin, shetelden kelgen qazaqtardyn, jurnalisterding kózinshe jautankóz aghayyngha: «Oralmandardy úrghanym bar. Syilasyp jýrmiz be, syilasyp, adam siyaqty jýrinder. Jóni joq esirip, qútyrmandar!», - dep saldy. Búl - jer betindegi qazaqtyng basyn qosyp, bir shanyraqtyng astyna jinap, memleketting irgesin myqtaugha tiyisti Preziydent Nazarbaevtyng ózi tóraghalyq etetin úiymnyng birinshi orynbasarynyng sózi men syiqy. Osydan keyin osy úiym turaly, ony basqaryp otyrghan Talghat Mamashev turaly ne deuge bolady? Osynday adamdy birinshi orynbasar etip otyrghan Preziydentting ózin de ayap ketedi ekensin.
- Bir súhbatynyzda «Dýniyejýzi qazaqtary qauymdastyghyna Talghat Mamashev kelgennen beri oralmandar mәselesining der kezinde sheshim tabuy sayabyrlap ketti. Qauymdastyqqa Qaldarbek Naymanbaev basshylyq etkende jaghday jaqsy edi» dep kýiinipsiz...
- IYә. Marqúm Qalekene de ókpeledik qoy kezinde. Dey túrghanmen, ol kisi kóp mәseleni sheshetin. Shetelde qazaqtar qonystanghan jerlerdi jalyqpay aralaytyn edi. Al Mamashev kishi qúryltay ótkizemiz dep Europa elderine sabyltatyndy shyghardy. Biylghy Dýniyejýzi qazaqtarynyng IV Qúryltayynyng aldynda ziyaly qauym ókilderi, sheteldegi ziyalylar Dýniyejýzi qazaqtary qauymdastyghynyng qúramyn ózgerteyik, búlay júmys jasaugha bolmaydy dep úsynys bergenbiz. Biraq qauymdastyqtyng basshylyghy da, qúramy da sol kýii qaldy. Qúryltaydan song taghy da Europagha baryp, kishi qúryltay ótkizip kelgendigin gazetterden oqydyq.
- Týsinikti. Barlyq elding azamattarynyng qolynda bar shetelge shyghatyn tólqújat QHR azamattaryna berilmeydi. Qytay ýkimeti tek azamattyq kuәlik qana beredi dep estiymiz. Osynyng sebebi nede?
- Qytaydaghy qandastarymyz Qazaqstandaghy nemese basqa bir sheteldegi tuystary shaqyrtu jibergende ghana tólqújat ala alady. Onda da tólqújat alugha bir ai, tipti, odan da kóp uaqyt júmsaydy. Songhy uaqytta Qytaydyng iri jәne orta qalalarynyng túrghyndary shaqyrtusyz-aq tólqújat ala bastady. Biraq búl qazaqtar jii qonystanghan ShÚAR aimaghyna әli jete qoyghan joq. Búl mәseleni Qytaydyng qúzyrly organdaryna biz әldeneshe ret mәsele etip kóterdik. «Qalada túratyndar men auyl-qystaqta túratyndardyng qúqy nege teng emes» dep. Al olardyng ózindik әrtýrli jauaptary, syltaulary kóp. Dey túrghanmen, songhy jyldary tólqújat beru jaghy jaqsardy. Qazaqstannan poshta arqyly bir japyraq sәlem hat kelse, qolyna tólqújatyn ala alady.
- Juyrda «Halyqtyng kóshi-qon turaly» zanyna ózgertuler men tolyqtyrular engizildi. Sizdinshe ózgerip, tolyqtyrylghan osy zannyng oralman bauyrlarymyzgha qiyndyq tudyratyn tústary bar ma?
- Áriyne, zang minsiz boldy deuden aulaqpyz. Mysalgha, zannyng oralmandargha beriletin jenildikter men әleumettik kómek turaly dep atalatyn babynda oralmandar kólik qúraldarynan basqa óz mýlikterin elge jetkizude kedendik alymdardan bosatylady delingen. Dәl osy bap kóship kelu kvotasyna engizilgen oralmandar ghana iygiliktenetin bolyp redaksiyalanghan. Qarap otyrsanyz, osy bap boyynsha memleketke auyrtpalyq salmay, óz betimen elge kelip, ornyghamyn degen aghayyn barlyq jighan-tergen mýlkin ózi túrghan elge tastap, tek 50 kg. jýgin ghana alyp keluge mәjbýr. Sonda óz erik-jigerimen elge kóship kelgen aghayynnyng osynshalyq tonalatynday ne kinәsi bar? Kóshi-qon zanyna әr kezde ózgeris engizilgen sayyn janymyzdy shýberekke týiip, ishimizden iman aityp otyramyz. Sebebi, jogharyda aitylghanday, óz qandastarymyzdyng jaghdayyn ózimiz qoldan qiyndatatynbyz. Mәselen, Almaty qalasynda tirkeu boyynsha әrbir sharshy metrge on bes adamnan. Men mysaly, 60 sharshy metrge jetinkiremeytin ýide túramyn. Tirkeude balam men әielim bar. Eger әkem qazir Qytaydan kóship kelse, ne bolady? Demek ol kisining tughan úlymen birge túrugha da mýmkindigi joq degen sóz ghoy búl. Birge túrugha mýmkindik joq bolsa da, tirkeu qaghazyn alugha múrsha bereyik tym qúrysa dedik. Búghan qazirgi Kóshi-qon komiyteti kelisken joq. Osydan qazir mәsele tuyndap jatyr. Almatygha kelgen oralman azamattyq ala almaydy. Óitkeni tirkeletin ýy joq. Ýy alayyn dese, azamattyghy joq. Qazaqtardyng kóbi qaybir keng ýide túrady deysin? Qazaqta «Saptyayaqqa as qúiyp, sabynan qarauyl qaraghan» degen sóz bar. Elimizding últtyq sayasatynyng siqy osy. Qalayda qazaqty shómishten qaghugha baghyttalady.
- «Jebeu» respublikalyq qoghamdyq birlestigi kóshi-qon mәselesinde qandastarymyzgha qoldau kórsetip jýrgeni belgili. Sizdinshe búghan deyingi 1992, 1997, 2002, 2009 jyldardaghy «Kóshi-qon zanynyn» qandastarymyzdyng qabyrghasyna batatyn baptary qaysy edi?
- 1992 jyly «Kóship kelu turaly» zang boldy. Keyin 1997 jyly janartylyp, «Halyqtyng kóshi-qony turaly» zany bolyp qabyldandy. Ol zannyng balama jobasyn deputat Ákim Ysqaq úsynghan bolatyn. Búl zang shyn mәninde kóptegen mәselelerge jauap beretin kemeldi zang bolyp qabyldanghan edi. Ókinishke qaray, Kóshi-qon jәne demografiya jónindegi agenttikting tórayymdyghyna Altynshash Jaghanova hanym kelgen tústa oralmandar ýshin qolayly baptar qyrqyla bastady. Jazbek Ábdiyev kelgen tústa, zangha oralmandardyng jaghdayyn qiyndatatyn baptar qasaqana tyqpalanyp, qandastarymyzdyng jaghdayyn odan beter qiyndatyp jiberdi. 2002 jyly J.Ábdiyev: «Oralmandar orys tilin bilmeydi. Endeshe olargha orys tilin ýiretuge aqsha bóleyik. Kelgennen keyin oryssha ýirensin», - degen úsynys engizdi. Taq bir qandastarymyzdyng mәselesi orys tiline qarap qalghanday-aq. Sosyn «Oralmandar Qazaqstan azamattyghyn qabyldasa, oralman mәrtebesinen airylatyn bolsyn» degen bapty taghy da tyqpalady. Búl degening - Qazaqstan azamattyghyn alghannan, keyin ol azamat oralman emes degen sóz. Demek olar oralmandargha beriletin әleumettik jenildikter men jәrdemaqydan birjola qaghylady degen sóz. Mәselen, Izraili men Germaniyada shetelden óz qandastary kóship kelse, oghan birinshi azamattyq beredi, sosyn týrli jenildikter men jәrdemaqylar beredi. Al bizde kerisinshe boldy ghoy. Kezinde «Múnday qayshylyq tudyratyn baptardy tyqpalamayyq»,- dep әldeneshe ret ótinish ettik. Osydan tuatyn zardaptardy tausyla týsindirdik. Biraq deputattar sol zang baptaryn qabyldap jiberdi. Nәtiyjesinde, qandastarymyz Qazaqstan azamattyghyn alayyn dese, jenildiginen airylady. Almayyn dese, azamattyghy joq bolghandyqtan, túraqty júmysqa túra almaydy. Tek respublika azamattaryna ghana tiyesili kóptegen mýmkindikterden qaghylady. Mәselen, ýy jәne jer satyp ala almaydy, balalaryna jәrdemaqy ala almaydy, qarttardyng zeynetaqy alugha da mýmkindigi joq. Osylaysha oralmandardy sabyltyp, taghy da basyn qatyrdyq. 2009 jyly Kóshi-qon komiyteti jana zang jobasyn úsyndy. Búl zang jobasy búrynghy qoldanystaghy zanda bar qatelikterdi aina-qatesiz qaytalady. Tipti oralman bauyrlarymyzdy jazalau sipatynda boldy. Mysaly, búryn oralman studentter Qazaqstangha kelip oqugha týsse, oqu ornynda jýrip, Qazaqstan azamattyghyn alugha mýmkindigi boldy. Al 2009 jylghy zanda oralman studentter oquyn bitirgen song nemese taghylymdamadan ótken song ghana azamattyq alugha qúqyly delingen. Odan song oralman mәrtebesin alghan qandasymyz bir jyl ishinde Qazaqstan azamattyghyn alugha ótinish bermese, azamattyq eshqashan berilmeydi degen bap úsynylghan. Búrynghy qoldanystaghy zanda Qazaqstan azamattyghyn alghan song oralman mәrtebesi toqtatylady degen bapty sol boyy qaldyrghan da, oghan ýsh ay ishinde azamattyq alugha mýmkindik beretin, jenildetilgen jýieni engizgen. Eger azamattyq alghannan keyin, oralman mәrtebesi toqtatylatyn bolsa, sol ýsh aidyng ishinde oralmandar ózderine beriletin әleumettik jәrdemaqyny alyp ýlgerui kerek. Sonda kvota shenberinde beriletin әleumettik jәrdemaqy alugha jinaytyn qújattyng ózin atalghan uaqytta jinap ýlgere ala ma? Osynyng bәrin «Jebeu» respublikalyq qoghamdyq birlestigi deputattargha týsindirip, jogharydaghy baptargha qarsylyq tanytyp, zannyng tiyimdiligin arttyrugha barynsha kýsh saldy. Aytayyn degenim, jaqynda Preziydent qol qoyghan «Halyqtyng kóshi-qon turaly» zanynda osy qayshylyqty týiinderding barlyghy ong sheshimin tapty.
- Agha, jaqynda oralmandargha ýsh aida QR azamattyghyn alatyn jenildetilgen jýie engiziletin boldy dep taghy bir shuladyq qoy. Jenildetilgen jýiening jetistigi men kemshiligi nede dep oilaysyz?
- IYә. Juyrda «ýsh aida azamattyq alatyn jenildetilgen jýieni engizemiz» dedi. Sonda Almaty oblysynyng Kóshi-qon polisiyasynyng bastyghy podpolkovnik E. Núrseyitov óz bólimshelerine «Jenildetilgen jýiege, jana qabyldanghan zannyng 17-babyna sәikes, 16 tamyzdan búryn kóship kelgen oralmandar bolsa, búrynghy tәrtippen, odan keyin oralghandar jana tәrtippen shetelding azamattyghynan shyghyp kelu kerek» degen qauly qabyldapty. Jana zandy kóshi-qon polisiyasy bastyghynyng ózi de dúrys oqymaghangha úqsaydy. QR «Azamattyghy turaly» degen zang bar. Osy zangha kóshi-qon mәseleleri boyynsha belgili ózgerister engizilgeni ras, biraq oralmandar ózi túrghan elding azamattyghynan shyghyp kelui kerek degen zandy talap joq onda. Zannyng «QR azamattyghynan bas tartu negizderi turaly» dep atalatyn 17-babynyng 7-tarmaghynda «basqa elding azamaty bolsa» qanday talap qoyylatyny aitylghan. Biraq tózimi jetip, osy bapty sonyna deyin oqyp shyqqan adam 7-tarmaqtaghy talaptyng zannyng 16-babynyng 1-tarmaghynyng birinshi jәne ekinshi abzasyndaghy sanattargha qoldanylmaytyndyghy eskertilgen. Demek, 16-baptyng 1-tarmaghyndaghy talap boyynsha «Qazaqstanda 5 jyl túraqty túrghan adam jәne QR-nyng azamatymen 3 jyl túraqty nekede túrghan jәne tarihy Otanyna oralghan oralmandargha» atalghan talap jýrmeydi. Oralman QR azamattyghyn qabyldaugha ótinish bergen jaghdayda, óz erkimen ózi azamaty bolghan elding azamattyghynan bas tartu turaly sol elding qúziretti lauazym iyelerining atyna notarialdy ótinish jazsa jetkilikti. QR «Azamattyq turaly» zanynda dәl osylay aiqyn jazylghan. Núrseyitov bolsa, 17-bapqa sәikes dep qoyyp, 16-bapty oqymaghan ba dep qaldym. Tipti 17-baptyng ózin ayaghyna deyin oqymaghan siyaqty. Tanqalarlyghy, ol tútas bir oblystaghy oralman aghayyndardyng azamattyqqa qabyldau tәrtibin óz betinshe 16 tamyzdan bastap basqasha belgileydi. Kóbinde múnday jarlyqty biz tek respublika Preziydentinen ghana kýtushi edik. Endi oralman qandastarymyzdyng taghdyryna әr sheneunik ózinshe biylik aitqannan keyin, olardyng jaghdayy qiyndamay qaytsin?

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