- Smaghúl agha, sizding songhy jaz­ghan kitabynyz «Qiyamet-qayym ghasy­ryn» oqyghanda kәdimgidey tol­qyp, ýlken oigha qaldyq. Sebebi siz onda diny nanym-senim, týrli za­manalar jayly, ainalada bolyp jatqan qúbylystar turaly saraptap, adamzatty tәubesine keluge shaqyrypsyz. Ásirese F.Nisshening HIH ghasyrda «Qúday óldi» degeni­ne HH ghasyrda әigili jazushy Dostoev­skiyding «HIH ghasyrda Qúday ólse, onda HH ghasyrda Adam óldi» dege­ni sanaly jannyng oilanbasyna qoy­maydy. Qay zamanda da óz tú­syna bagha bergen oishyldar tabylady. Osy tústa siz býgin biz ómir sý­rip jat­qan myna ghasyrgha qanday tú­jy­rym jasap, qanday bagha berer ediniz?

- Ózi ómir sýretin qogham men zaman jayly oilanbaytyn oily adam boluy mýmkin emes. Kez kelgen oily adam osy eki úghymmen qatar, sol zamanda ómir sýrip jatqan úrpaghynyng bolashaghy turaly oilary anyq. Tilge tiyek bolyp otyrghan «Qiya­met-qayym ghasyry» - sonday oidan tughan enbek, yaghny mening tek qana jazushy emes, óz zamanymyz turaly, dinimiz turaly oy tolghauym edi. Bir jaghynan, ontologiya, yaghny Qúdaytanu, ekinshi jaghynan, teologiya - dintanu, sonday-aq búl - esse, yaky oi. Jogharydan kelgen búiryq bolar, osy kitapty jazu ýstindegi kelgen oilar aq qaghazgha tizbektele berdi. Endi qazirgi zamangha keler bolsaq, shynynda da, biz ómir sýrip otyrghan ghasyr búl - jay ghasyr emes, jalpy adamzattyng tarih aldynda esep beretin, qorytyndy shygharatyn ghasyry. Egerde ol qorytyndy shyghara almasa, búl aqyry qiyngha aparyp soghatyn qiyn ghasyr bolu qaupi bar. Óitkeni qasiyet­ti Qúran Kәrimde jәne oghan deyingi kiyeli kitaptarda da aitylghan zamanaqyr jayly boljamdardyng kóptegen belgileri bizding kóz aldymyzda kólbendep jýr dep aitu­gha negiz bar. Eng qiyny - adamdardyng niyeti ózgerip, qúndylyqqa degen kózqarasy ózgerip, adamdar qúnyghyp ketti. Búl qúby­lys qaydan, qalay órbidi der bolsaq, týp-tamyryn sonau XVI ghasyrdan tabatyndaymyz. Sebebi sol tústan bastap Batys әle­minde imperializm dýniyege kele bastady. Negizi, qanday da bolsyn órkeniyet óz bastauyn qaru shygharudan alady. Bertin kele, adamzat sol qarudy su jolymen, basqa da shalghay joldarmen jetkizetin keme, poyyz siyaqty kólik týrlerin oilap tapty. Sol baghytta key elderding arany ashylyp, ózderinen әlsizdeu elderdi jaulap alugha kiristi. Múny imperializmning әlemge auyz saluy deuge bolady. Sol orta ghasyrlarda Batysta adamzatty kóp nәrse­den shektep, auyzdyqtap otyrghan din edi, yaghny Hristian dini sonau 16-18 ghasyrlarda imperializmge túsau salugha tyrysty. Nege? Sebebi imperializm óz maqsatyna jetu jolynda jaulap alu, tonau, qan tógu, zorlyq-zombylyqtan da tayynbay, ayaq alyp bara jatyr edi. Ókinishtisi, osy qogham óz jolyna kedergi bolghan dindi әlsiretuge kóshti ghoy. Kapital ómirge kelisimen, barlyq kýsh iydeologiyalyq qaru, barlyghy da sonyng jaghyna shyghyp ketti de, dinge búl auyr soqqy boldy. Múnday prosester Batystyng barlyq elinde tegis jýrip jatty. Nәtiyje­sinde sonau Niuton, onyng bergi jaghyndaghy Darviyn, jalpy ghylymda ashylyp jatqan әrbir ýlken janalyq «Qúday joq» degen qaghidanyng qúralyna ainaldy. Sol jolgha qyzmet etip, búqarany ateizmge ertip әke­tuge baryn saldy. Burjuaziya oghan mәz bolyp, qol soghyp otyrdy. Minekey, Darvin evolusiyasy osy qoldau-quattaudyng ar­qa­synda dýniyege kelgen edi. Kapital sóz­siz oghan barynsha demeu jasap, onyng әlem­di sharlauyna jaghday jasady. Kýshey­gen evolusiya bolsa, Qúdaydyng «taghdy­ryna» nýkte qoydy. Myna qyzyqqa qara­nyz, býkil Batys burjuaziyasy ózderin kózi ashyq, kókiregi oyau qauymnan sanay otyryp, adamnyn, yaghny óz tegining maymyldan shyqqanyna sendi sonda. Solaysha «Qúday mәselesin» sheshti. Sondyqtan da sol HIH ghasyrdyng oishyly Fridrih Nisshe «Qú­day óldi, ony biz óltirdik» dep әlemge jar saldy. Ony estigen Fedor Dostoevskiy «HIH ghasyrda Qúday ólse, onda HH ghasyrda adam oiyna kelgendi jasay beretin boldy ghoy» dep ózining adamy biyik oiyn qoryqpay aityp saldy. Úly jazushynyng aitqany keldi, shynynda, Qúday «ólgennen» keyin, adam azghyndau jolyna týsti. Nisshening filosofiyalyq ilimin Gitler ilip әketti de, qolynan kelgenshe adamzatty qyryp-jo­yyp, jer betin qangha boyady. Million­daghan adam fashizmning qúrbany boldy. Osydan keyin HH ghasyr qúdaysyzdar gha­sy­ry boldy deuge әbden negiz bar. Jer sha­ry­nyng jartysyn sosializm jaylady. Olardyng negizgi maqsaty sol - Qúdaygha sene­tinderding kózin joyyp, ateisterdi algha úmtyldyru bolghany ózderinizge ayan. Sol maqsatqa jetti, onyng zardabyn siz ben bizding ata-babamyz da tartyp, tipti býginge deyin salqyny sezilip qalady. Dinsizdik pen imannan ajyraudyng zardabyn qazaq tartuday-aq tartty: bizge ýlgi kórsetip, bata beruge tiyis qariyalarymyz araq iship, toy-tomalaq quugha ainaldy. Minekey, osynday shyndyqty, osynday súmdyqty kórgen buynnan qalghan bizder osy jaghyn kópten oilandyq.

- Kópten oilandyq deysiz, al endi osy sózinizge qarap júrt kóke­yinde «eger kópten oilansa, onda nege búrynyraq jazbady, býgin­gidey ata salttyng saqalyna jarmasyp, marqúmdardyng ziratyn qira­tatyn úrpaq, bәlkim, sonda tumas pa edi?» degen oy tuuy zandy ghoy?

- Kórgenimizdi, bayqaghanymyzdy qay­teyik, negiz bolmay, sýienetin derek bolmay biz eshtene aityp, jaza almaytyn edik qoy. Sondyqtan kózimiz ashyq bolghanymen - soqyr, qúlaghymyz bolghanymen - keren, ti­li­miz bolghanymen mylqaudyng kýiin keshuge mәjbýr boldyq. Sebebi Kenes ýkimeti kýirep, temir torlary qúlamay, bizding qolymyz әlemdik filosofiyagha jetpedi. Tereng oily ghúlamalar enbegi, Qúran sekildi úly kitaptardy oqugha tyiym salynghan edi. Tәuelsizdik úrpaghy, bәlkim, bizdi týsin­bes, sebebi bizding kórgenimizdi, baqyttaryna oray, olar kórgen joq. Olar erkin, olar tyiym degendi bilmeydi. Shýkir, Tәuelsiz­dikting kelui aqparatqa jol ashty ghoy. Búryn tyiym salynghan talay-talay tuyndylar avtorlary aqtalyp, aramyzgha oraldy. Nә­tiy­jesinde biz qazirgi zaman, qazirgi qo­ghamgha osynday oy aita alatyn dәrejege jet­tik. Osy tústa aita ketuge tiyispiz. 1991 jyly egemen el bolghanda eki birdey ýlken tarihy janalyq boldy. Onyng biri - jaq­sy, ekinshisi... Jaqsysy - Tәuelsiz el bolyp, otarlyq búghaudan qútylsaq, al jamany - ózimiz bilmey, sezbey, asau tolqyngha kýmp bergendey boldyq. Sol jolda biz kóp­tegen qiyndyqtargha úshyrastyq. Kapital «Qúday» bolyp esepteletin sol asau aghysqa týsken Batys elderining kýiin qazir kórip otyrsyzdar: әr elinde daghdarys, aqshagha tabynghan Batys әlemi Jaratushysyn «óltirip», ornyna, taqqa aqshany otyr­ghyzdy. Sóitken kapitalistik jýiening jer betinde býgin ýlken daghdarysy bastaldy. Sebebi ol «taqqa otyrghyzghan» aqsha adam­zatqa baqyt alyp kelmedi. Tyghyryq pen daghdarystyng bar mәnisi - osynda. Ókinishke qaray, adamzat әli kýnge deyin kapitalizmnen basqa damudyng jolyn oilap tapqan joq, әzir. Biraq soghan qara­mastan imandy qogham qúrsaq degen arman bar bizde. Ol Alash armany edi. Erkin naryq qala berui kerek, әriyne, biraq imandy naryq bolsa. Sol siyaqty kapitalistik qoghamgha da eshkim qarsy bolmas edi, eger ol imandylyqqa iyek artqan, halyqqa júmys isteytin adal kapital bolsa. Ol halyqtyng negizgi bóligin sorlatatyn kapital bolmaugha tiyis qoy. Ókinishke qaray, biz onday kapitaldy kóp­tegen elder tәjiriy­besinen kórip te jýrmiz. Mәselen, Arab el­derinde piramidanyng úshar basyndaghy bay-shonjarlar odan sa­yyn dәuleti tasyp, al qalyng búqara bolsa baqytsyz kýige týsude, әriyne, әleumettik túrghyda. Qazir ol elderde bolyp jatqan alapat soghystar sonyng nәtiyjesi deuge әb­den negiz bar. Sondyqtan da biz, Qazaqstan na­ryqtyng múnday daghdarysqa aparyp soqtyratyn emes, imandy jolyn tapsa eken degen niyetpen osynday enbek jazyp otyrmyz.

- Qazaq - eshqashan imanynan ajy­ramaghan halyq. Sóite túra, biz qazaqty dindar boldy dey alamyz ba? Qazirgi bizding halqymyzdyng senimi, soghan say ózin-ózi ústauyna, senimin syrt pishinimen kórsetu qú­by­lysyna qanday bagha berer ediniz?

- Juyrda ghana men Egiypette bolyp keldim. Sonda sol Kairding ózinde qyz-kelinshekterding esh túmshalanbay-aq, zamanauy kiyimmen jýrgenin kórdim. Bet-auzyna deyin býrkep nemese qap-qara kiyinip jýr­gender ol jaqta joqtyng qasy. Al endi kórshi Arab elinde jaghday tipti basqa. Olardyng kiyimi de, Islamgha degen qúlqy da ózgeshe. Minekey, sol tәrizdi senim, iman, dindi ústanu degen de әr elding tarihy mentaliytetine, salt-dәstýrine say enui kerek, meninshe. Búl jayly qasiyetti Qúran Kәrim­de de aitylghan, yaghny dindi tym asyra siltep, fanat dәrejesinde ústanudan saq boludy eskertedi. Payghambarymyzdyng (s.gh.s) ha­disterinde de aitylady. Negizinde, qazaq - imandy jýregine tereng úya­lat­qan halyq. Alayda qazaq eshqashanda dinge baylanysty kiyimin ózgertpegen, ózining últtyq kiyiminde qalghan. Sebebi bizding últ­tyq kiyimimiz sharighatta aitylghan sharttargha qayshy kelmeydi. Sosyn taghy bir aitarlyghy halqymyz eshqashan diny fanat bolmaghan. Biraq qazir tipti el-júrty qalagha kóship, qanyrap qalghan auyldargha barsanyz da, әli kýnge deyin saqtalghan kóne meshitterdi kóremiz. Yaghny búl - auyldarda meshit boldy, onyng imamy, moldalary boldy, son­dyq­tan auyl diny sauatty boldy degenning dә­le­li. Tipti bizding Ahan, Ahmet Baytúrsynov jasap shyqqan tól әlipbiyimizding arab grafikasy negizinde әzirlengen tóte jazuda boluynyng ózi diny sauattylyghymyzdyng búltartpas dәleli edi. Cózsiz, biz músyl­mandyqty jýrekpen qabyldaghan halyq­pyz, biraq biz dindi qazaqtyn, týrkilerding mentaliytetine, dalanyng ereksheligine baylanysty ústandyq, eshbir jerinen bolmysymyzben qayshylyq tughan joq.

- Al endi osy tústa sózinizdi bóleyin, «qazaq tәnirlik dindi ústandy, shaman boldy» deytinder de tabylyp jýr. Oghan dәlel retinde el ishinde saqtalghan keybir, aitalyq, otqa may qúy, Aygha sәlem salu sekildi salttardy algha tartady. Sol sekildi qazaqtyng birtuar túl­ghasy, ghajayyp daryn iyesi Shoqan Uә­lihanovtyng «Qazaqtardaghy sha­man­dyq­tyng qaldyghy» atty ghylymy mono­grafiyasy da bar. Osyghan ne der ediniz?

- Ras, әr auylda baqsylar boldy, tipti әli kýnge deyin baqsylyq saqtalghan. Olardyng qoghamdaghy orny qanday? Ne ýshin baqsylyq fenomeni joyylmay keledi? Sebebi onyng el ishinde atqaratyn óz funksiyasy bar, ol emshilik qyzmet atqa­rady. Shynyna keler bolsaq, baqsylardyng syrt keypi shamandyqqa tartqanymen, ishki mazmúny jaghynan músylmandyqqa jaqyn jandar edi. Sebebi olar Alladan berilgen emshilik qasiyetin adamdargha beru arqyly Alladan aurugha shipa tilegen. Al endi qazirgi kezde biz ata-babamyz myng jyldan beri ústanyp kele jatqan dәstýrli dinimizdi qalpyna keltiruimiz kerek. Sebebi dәs­týrli dinimizde eshqanday terrorizmge, vandalizmge oryn joq. Qazaqta eshqashan bir atanyng balalary bir-birine oq atpaghan. Qazaq «músylmandyq әste-әste» dep tekke aitpaghan. Búl - naghyz fanatizmge qarsy toytarys beretin tәrbiye. Al qazaqtyng auzynan Allasy esh uaqytta týspegen. Din bólshektenudin, iritki saludyng emes, últtyq tútastyqtyng faktory bolghan. Daladaghy jalghyz din Islam boldy, basqa eshqanday dindi bizding halqymyz qabyldaghan joq. Biz sol qalypqa, yaghny diny tútastyqqa qayta keluimiz kerek.

- Kenestik zamannyng qazaqqa әkelgen ýlken bir qasireti - Qúday­syzdandyrghany. Al endi Tәuelsiz­dikting eng ýlken syiy desek te bolar, qazaqty qayta Qúdaymen qa­uysh­tyrdy. Biraq diny bostandyqty da dúrys týsinbeuden biz neshe agh­ym­­gha bólinip, tipti bir otbasynyng mý­sheleri әrtýrli senim jeteginde ketip, dastarqan basynda birge ta­maqtana almaytyn halge jetken de jayymyz bar. Basqa sektalardy ait­paghannyng ózinde, músylman de­genderding óz ishinde de qazaqtyng salt-dәstýrin joqqa shygharushylar tabylyp jýr...

- Men, mine, soghan qarsymyn. Batysta týrki órkeniyeti degen úghym bar. Biz sol óz órkeniyeti bar ýlken týrki júrtynyng bir bólshegimiz. Sondyqtan da bizding býkil bol­mysymyzgha singen últtyq salt-dәstýrdi ysyryp tastaugha bolmaydy. Jalpy, qazaq ghúrpyndaghy ata-baba mazaryn qúrmetteu, qaytys bolghandargha Qúran baghyshtau sha­riy­ghatqa qayshy nәrseler emes. Namaz oqy­ghanda da sonynda ata-baba aruaghyna arnap dúgha etu bar ghoy. Qúran hatym qylu - eshqanday da Allagha serik qosu emes, aruaqty syilau. Sol sekildi ata syilau, ana syilau degenning ózi imannyng eng birinshi sharttary, «júmaqtyng kiltin ana tabany­nyng astynan izdender» deydi Payghamba­rymyz óz hadisterinde. Al qazirgidey qy­ryq pyshaq bolyp jatqandyghymyz ol әrtýrli diny bilim alghandyqtan dep oilaymyn. 90-jyldary bizding bilim izdep shetelge ketken jastarymyzdyng deni jaqsy bilim alyp keldi, әsirese Týrkiyagha barghan­dar der edim men. Al endi bizding Shyghysy­myzdaghy damymay qalghan Islam memleketterine baryp bilim alghan jastardyng keybireuleri sol ekstremistik ýgit-nasiy­hattyng jetegine ózining qalay erip ketkenin de bilmey qaldy. Elimizding әr shetinde ózin-ózi qoparyp jýrgen balalar kózi ashyl­may, sanasyna taza bilimning emes, aram­za pighyldaghy ýgit-nasihattyng uy egil­gender. Olardyng miyn ulaghan, ekinshi ja­ghynan, ýlken qarjymen olardyng ayaq-qolyn baylaghan. Olardyng kóbi shette jý­rip, ýiinen qarjylay kómek ala almay, ózin-ózi asyrau jolynda әlgindeylerding qúryghyna ilinip qalghan kedeyding balalary dep topshylaymyn óz basym. Shyn mәnin­degi islamy ilim berilse, onda ol kerisinshe qoghamgha barynsha paydasyn tiygizip, adam ataulygha meyirimin tóger edi. Sebebi bizding dinimizding negizi tek gumanizmnen túrady. Sonday terendikke barmaghandyqtan da, ol balalar sektalyq dәrejedegi diny aghym­dardyng qúrbany bolyp jatyr. Ol óte ókinishti jaghday.

- Mәselen, «mәdeniyet ólgen jerde órkeniyet saltanat qúrady» degen sóz bar, siz osyghan kelisesiz be?

- Óte dúrys aitylghan sóz, men búghan tolyghymen kelisemin. Rasynda, jahan­danudy mәdeny qúbylysqa emes, órke­niyetke balaymyn óz basym. Al sol jahan­danudy, últtyq mәdeniyetterdi óz ekpinimen úshyryp, joyyp ketetin әlemdik dauyl deu­ge bolady. Jahandanghan júrt bir-birinen aumaytyn ýiler saluda. Mәselen, Tokio men Niu-Yorkten ne aiyrmashylyghy bar? Sol siyaqty bir-birinen aumaytyn әdet-ghúryp, bir-birinen aumaytyn kiyim-keshek kiyip, tura sonday kinofilimder kóredi. Sóitedi de әr halyq ózining últtyq kelbetin joghaltady. Al jahandanudyng da kózdegeni - sol. Óitkeni ol - órkeniyet, al órkeniyette últ­tyq bet joq. Últtyq bet tek qana mәde­niyet­te ghana bar.

Alashqa aitar datym...

Senim, iman, dindi ústanu degen de әr elding tarihy mentaliytetine, salt-dәstýrine say enui kerek, meninshe. Búl jayly qasiyetti Qúran Kәrimde de aitylghan, yaghny dindi tym asyra siltep, fanat dәrejesinde ústanudan saq boludy eskertedi. Negizinde qazaq - imandy jýregine tereng úyalatqan halyq. Alayda qazaq eshqashanda dinge baylanysty kiyimin ózgertpegen, ózining últtyq kiyiminde qalghan. Sebebi bizding últtyq kiyimimiz sharighatta aitylghan sharttargha qayshy kelmeydi. Sosyn taghy bir aitarlyghy - halqymyz eshqashan diny fanat bolmaghan. Biraq qazir tipti el-júrty qalagha kóship, qanyrap qalghan auyldargha barsanyz da, әli kýnge deyin saqtalghan kóne meshitterdi kóremiz. Yaghny búl - auyldarda meshit boldy, onyng imamy, moldalary boldy, sondyqtan auyl diny sauatty boldy degenning dәleli. Tipti bizding Ahan, Ahmet Baytúrsynúly jasap shyqqan tól әlipbiyimizding arab grafikasy negizinde әzirlengen tóte jazuda boluynyng ózi diny sauattylyghymyzdyng búltartpas dәleli edi. Cózsiz, biz músylmandyqty jýrekpen qabyldaghan halyqpyz, biraq biz dindi qazaqtyn, týrkilerding mentaliytetine, dalanyng ereksheligine baylanysty ústandyq, eshbir jerinen bolmysymyzben qayshylyq tughan joq.

Súhbattasqan -  Mәriyam ÁBSATTAR

«Alash ainasy» gazeti