– Meyramhanalarda syra iship otyrghan bauyrlarynyzdy qymyzhanagha bet búrghyzsam degen armanynyz qanshalyqty oryndaluy mýmkin? Sol jolda qanday sharualar atqaryluda?

– Meyramhanalarda syra iship otyrghan bauyrlarynyzdy qymyzhanagha bet búrghyzsam degen armanynyz qanshalyqty oryndaluy mýmkin? Sol jolda qanday sharualar atqaryluda?

–  «Kýshtining arty diyirmen tartady» degen ras. Shetel ózining syrasyn bizding әr dýkenimizding sóresine samsatyp, meyram­hanalaryndaghy jastarymyzdy tamsantyp qoyghanyna da birshama jyl boldy. Qanymyzgha, dilimizge sinip bara ma dep qorqamyn. Myndaghan jyldar boyy, sol syranyng ornyna qasiyetti asymyz, sary balday qymyzdy iship ósken babalarymyz eki beti narttay bolyp, Seksenbey, Toqsan­baylardy dýniyege әkeldirip edi. Qazirgi kezde әlemdik medisina syranyng erler­ding potensiyasyn tómendetetindigin, al qymyzdyng kerisinshe jogharylatatyndyghyn dәleldep otyr. Qazaqtyng qany búzylmasa, atasynan qalghan asty ishse, deni sau bolsa dep armandaysyn. Ázirge armanymyz sol arman kýiinde qalyp otyr. «Átteng tonnyng keltesi-ay» degendey, qoldyng qysqalyghy búl armannyng oryndaluyna kedergi bolyp túr. Jalghyzdyng ýni shyqpaydy. Tyrtyndap ózimizshe sharuamyzdy istep jatyrmyz. Ýkimetten kómek bolmaghan son, biyl bankten kommersiyalyq nesie alyp, týie, jylqy satyp әkelip, zauyttyng joba­syn jasap jatyrmyz. Alla qalasa, biyl qysqa deyin zauytty salyp, zauyt janynan  qymyz-shúbat iship, atqa minip, sadaq atyp, it jýgirtip dem alugha bolatyn shaghyn et­noauyl jasau jolynda qimyldap jatyr­myz. Eger osy jobam iske asatyn bolsa, men armanymnyng oryndaluy jolynda taghy bir iri qadam jasaghan bolar edim. Óit­keni qazir halyqtyng jaghdayy jaqsar­ghan. Ásirese Almaty syndy iri qalalardyng manyndaghy túrghyndarda aqsha bar. Biraq olar baratyn dúrys jer joq bolghasyn, әrdeneni jaghalap ketedi. Eger etnoauyl júmysyn bastasa, adamdardyng keletinine senemin. Búl tiyn tabudy kózdegen biznes-nýktesi ghana emes, últtyq qúndylyghymyzdy nasihattaudyng birden-bir joly bolady dep oilaymyn. Osy arqyly keshegi sayyn dalanyng egesi bolghan qazaqtyng býgingi qabatty ýige qamalghan úrpaghy babasynyng salt-dәstýrin jadynda janghyrtar edi. Bala-shaghasyn ertip kelip kiyiz ýide jatyp demalyp, qymyzy men shúbatyn iship, atqa minip, seyil qúryp, sadaq atyp jýrse ja­man ba? Jәne syrttan kelgen sheteldik qonaqtarymyzgha maqtanyshpen kórseter edik. Eger Qúday qoldap tirligimiz algha ba­syp jatsa jaman bolmas edi. Meninshe, ol kýn de alys emes siyaqty. 

– Almaty qalasynyng әr jerinen qymyz satatyn shaghyn dýngirshekter ashyp qongha da bolatyn shyghar. Qazir Dóner satatyn dýngirshekterden ayaq alyp jýre almaytyn kýnge jettik. Qoljetimdi bolsa qymyz da kóp ishiler me edi degen oy ghoy.

– IYә, qymyzhanalardy kóbeytsek degen de oy bar. «Darigha, armanym kóp neghylayyn» degen әn joldaryndaghy siyaq­ty, arman kóp. Negizi, jaman әdetpen, jaman qylyqtarmen kýreskende tyiym salu әdisimen kýresken dúrys emes. Jaman әdetten jiyrendiru ýshin sonyng ornyn basa alatyn jaqsy әdet úsynynyz. Halturagha jolama dep myng qaqsaghansha, klassikany tartu etiniz. Jaman muzykanyng ornyna jaqsy muzyka úsyna bilsek, búl joldaghy kýres jemisti bolmaq. Osy jaydy eskere alsaq, әlemning bәri derlik ishetin syranyng ornyn qymyz basar edi. Shólindi  qandyra­dy, sharshaghanyndy basady, jýikendi qal­pyna keltiredi, denine saulyq syilaydy.

Qalanyng shuynan, danghazasynan, jú­mys­taghy keristen sharshaghan adamdar jýikesin qalpyna keltiretin susyn izdeydi. Kýnde keshkilik júmystan keyin, demalys kýnderi әngimelesip otyru ýshin de susyn­dardyng orny erekshe. Bizde, Allagha shýkir, babalarymyz múragha tastap ketken osyn­day tamasha susynymyz bar. Biraq qymyz­dy brendke ainaldyra almaghandy­ghy­myz­dyng saldarynan jastarymyz densaulyqqa ziyandy alkogolisiz energetikalyq susyn­dardy iship jatyr. Múnyng da ziyany turaly aituday-aq aitylyp jýr. Alayda dәl sol susynnyng ornyn basatyn basqa susyn úsyna almaghandyqtan, onyng densaulyqqa ziyandy ekendigin qansha ret aitsanyz da әsersiz bolady. Biz osy jolda ýlken qa­dam­dargha baryp, qymyz óndirisin baryn­sha damytyp, sapaly qymyzdyng әr dýken­de túratynday dengeyge jetkizuimiz kerek. Qymyz-shúbatynyz sanauly jerde satyla­tyn bolghandyqtan, әrkim izdep jýre al­may­dy.

–  Belgili akademik Tóregeldi Sharmanov «túzdaghy yodtyng azdyghy bizding túz óndirushilerdegi úyattyng azdyghynyng kesirinen bolyp túr» degen edi bir sózinde. Júrttyng qymyz satyp aludan qorquyn nemen baylanystyrugha bolady?

– Qazaqta «Eger saghan qymyz kómektes­pese, esh nәrse kómektespeydi» degen sóz bar. Jambyl babamyz aitqanday «aurugha em, saugha quat dәri – qymyz» ghoy búl ja­ryq­tyq. Júrttyng qymyz satyp aludan qorqatynyna, meninshe, eki sebep bar. Bi­rin­­shiden, «Auru batpandap kiredi, mysqal­dap shyghady», «Auru qalsa da әdet qalmay­dy» degendey adam degen pende bolghan son, jaman nәrseni tez qabyldap alghangha jaqyn túrady. «Balamdy karta oinaugha ýiretip ber, temeki tartugha, araq ishuge ýiretip ber dep, bolmasa kazino oinaudy ýiretshi dep» ústaz izdep jýrgen adamdy kórdiniz be? Joq. Óitkeni onday jaman nәrseler tez kiredi de, jaqsy, paydaly nәrse onay qabyldana qoymaydy. Olardy kirgizu ýshin kóp nasihat kerek. Jetpis jyl boyy syrany simirip, jaman әdet boygha әbden jaylady. Ony endi mysqaldap shygharu kerek. Auru bolsa da, әdet bolsa da qaldyratyn kez keldi. Ekinshiden, qy­myz, shúbat ishime jaqpaydy degen sózderdi jii estiymiz. Olay bolatyny  qazir qymyz ben shúbatty auyldardan qoldanylghan  bos qútylargha, basqa da ýlkendi-kishili ydystargha qúiyp, mashinanyng jýk salghy­shy­na salyp, qaynaghan ystyqta alyp kele­di. Dúrys ashymaghan, baptalmaghan, tazaly­ghy kýmәndi qymyz ben shúbat ishke jaq­pay­tyny ras. Sol sebepti de adamdar qoldan qymyz satyp ala bermeydi. Jeke adamdardyng ýiinde ashytylghan qymyzdar әriyne kýmәndi. Óitkeni әrkim әrqalay baptaydy. Bireuining pisui kem bolsa, ekinshisi dúrys ashytyl­ma­ghan. Al ýshinshi bireuler su qosyp satady. Al zauyttyng qymyzdary birkelki bolady. Óitkeni jeke adamdar siyaqty emes, zauyt­tyng jauapkershiligi bar. Olar ózderi qa­lyp­tastyryp otyrghan sauda belgisining aty­na kir keltirmeu ýshin barynsha taza boludy kózdeydi.

– Jaz ailarynda jylqysy barlardyng barlyghy derlik bie baylaydy. Al qystyng kýnderi әrkim bie saua bermeydi. Endigi súraghymyz sizder óndiretin qymyzdyng saudasynda qys pen jazda qanshalyqty aiyrma bar?

– Ejelden tabighatpen etene ómir sýrgen qazaq balasy jaz shygha auzymyz aqqa tiydi dep jatady. Osy kezde qymyzmú­ryn­dyq jasap, mәz-meyram bolyp qala­dy. Endi zaman talabyna oray jәne qazirgi mýmkinshilikti paydalanyp (jem-shóp jinap, qora salyp degendey) biyelerdi qazaqsha aitqanda kenje tughyzyp (kýz ailarynda qúlyndatyp degen sóz), qysta da bie sauugha bolady. Negizi, qymyzdy dala halqynan góri qalanyng qapyryq, gazdy auasyn jútatyn, jýikesi júqa, arpa­lysta ómir sýretin qalanyng halqy ishkeni dúrys. Jәne de qysta qymyz ben shúbattyng adam aghzasyn shynyqtyratyn, immuniy­tetin kóteretin qasiyetin paydalan­sa, adam suyqqa tótep berip, túmau-súmau­dy ele­mey­di. Al bizding saudamyzda qys pen jazda alyp bara jatqan aiyrma bolmaydy.

– Mesenat – degen jaqsy at. Ónerge demeushilik jasau, atymtaylyq – qazaqtyng qanynda bar qasiyet. Mysal ýshin aitsaq, Esenqúl qajy Mamanov 1913 jyly qazaq romandaryna eng alghashqy bәigeni jariyalap, bar shyghynyn ózi kótergen. Qazir bizde qaltaly azamattar barshylyq. Biraq solardyng demeushiligi kemdeu ekeni jasyryn emes. Keybireulerining demeushiligi jarnama ýshin de jasalatynday. Osy jayyndaghy oiynyzben bólisseniz.

– «Ózing ýshin ghana ómir sýrsen, ózi ýshin ottaghan hayuan bolghanyn» degen Abay atam. Bolmasa «Malda da bar jan men tәn, aqyl-sezim bolmasa, tirshilikting nesi sәn, terenge bet qoymasa» degen de taghy sol Abay atamyz. Abay atamyzdyng ólenderin, qara sózderin oqyp, ony týsine alghan qazaq balasy mesenat bolmauy mýmkin emes, meninshe. Kóp adamdar «Ómirge pәlsapalyq kózqaraspen qaraymyn» – dep aityp jatady. Meninshe, pәlsәpalyq kózqaras degen sóz – ómirding ótkinshi ekenin, o dý­niye­ge jinaghan-tergenindi alyp kete al­may­tynyndy, shamang jetkenshe jaqynda­ryna, eline jaqsylyq jasau kerek ekenin týsinu, sol jolda qyzmet isteu. Abay atamyz manayyndaghy talantty jastardy tәrbiye­leuge, oqytugha bar kýsh-jigerin júmsaghan ghoy. «Shәkәrimdi oqyta almadym, uәdemdi orynday almadym» dep qatty ókingen eken ómirden óterinde. Ókinishke qaray, bizding qoghamda osy demeushilik «modagha» ainal­may jatyr әzirge. Halyqpen óner egiz. Qazaq halqy yqylym zamannan beri óner­di, óner iyelerin qúrmettegen. Jarnama ýshin jasaytyndar dep aityp qaldyn. Onyng nesi jaman? Jaman aty shyghyp jat­qandar da az emes. Al olar jaqsy atym shyqsa eken dep oilaydy ghoy. Bizde sol jarnama ýshin de jaqsylyq jasau jaghy kem bolyp túr emes pe? Nebir milliar­derler bar. Qolynan bir tiyn shygharmay­dy. «Forbes» jurnalynda jýrgenderding qaysysy qazaq ruhaniyatyna qayyrym jasapty? Birer jigitter bar, atymtayly­ghymen, jomarttyghymen sýisintip jýrgen. Qolynda baryn bóliskeni ýshin olargha degen qúrmetim erekshe. Últty últ retinde saqtap qalatyn birden-bir qúndylyq sol – óneri emes pe? Ózing ónerli bolmasan, óner jolynda jýrgen ónerpazgha qamqor bol. Sonda sen de últtyng ónerining ósuine ýles qosqan bolasyn. Ol degeniniz últqa qyzmetting bir parasy bolyp sanalady. Men óz basym mesenattyqty osylay dep baghalaymyn. Onsyz da jaghdayy keremet estrada әnshisine kólik mingizu demeushilik emes. Ol ózing aitqanday jarnama, maqtan­gershilik boluy mýmkin. Demeushilik degen – aty aityp túrghanday demeu. Múqtaj salagha kómektesuimiz kerek. 

– Últtyq qúndylyghymyz – dәstýrli ónerdi qoldap jýresiz. Estradanyng zamanynda kiyeli ónerimizdi saqtap qalu ýshin qay jol nәtiyjeli bolady dep oilay­syz?

– Qoghamgha yqpal etude, óskeleng úrpaq­ty tәrbiyeleude ónerdin, әsirese әn óneri­ning manyzy óte zor. Juyrda últtyq óner jolynda janyn salyp qyzmet istep jýrgen Erlan Tóleutay bauyrymyzdyng maqalasy jariyalandy. Erlan bauyrymyzsha aitar bolsam, songhy jiyrma jyl boyy aqparat­tyq soghys tasqynynyng astynda qalyp, ruhany kontuziya alyp shyqqan adamzattyq, últtyq qúndylyqtarmen qarulanbaghan biliksiz, óresiz buynnyng memleket iydeolo­giyasyna qol súgha bastaghanyn, biylikting basqaru tetikterine qoldary jete basta­ghanyn kórip otyrmyz. Búnyng sony memle­ket ýshin orny tolmas ókinishterge alyp kelui mýmkin. Óitkeni jat mәdeniyetting yqpalynda ósip-óngen marginaldanghan, mәngýrttengen, onyng ýstine tobyrlyq mә­de­niyetting shylauynda jetilgen miskinnen eshqashan da memleketshil túlgha shyqpaydy. Ol eshqashanda óz últynyng arman-ansaryn týsine almaydy, eshqashanda últ ruhaniya­tyna kýzetshi bola almaydy. Múnday toghyshar pendeler barlyq qúndylyqtardy shou dengeyinen arygha kótere almaydy. Ár әnnin, әr әnshining dengeyi de bar, ony tyn­daytyn tyndarmannyng da dengeyi bar. Án tau desek, estradada әnsymaq tóbeshikter tolyp jatyr ghoy. Oghan shyghu da jenil. Onday әnshiler de kóp. Al әnning everesi  mәngi joghalmaytyn, tozbaytyn Aqan seri, Birjan sal, Abay atamyzdyng әnderi siyaqty klassikalyq óner tuyndylary ghoy. Olardy oryndap, osy zamangha jetki­zip ketken Gharifolla, Jýsipbek syndy alyp­tarymyz, Jәnibek, Qayrat, Mәde­niyet­tey aghalarymyz, olardyng izin basyp kele jat­qan Ramazan Stamghazy, Sәule Janpeyisova, Erkin Shýkimәn, Erlan Tóleu­tay men Erlan Rysqalilardyng da enbegi sheksiz. Osylar aitatyn әnder әnderding tóresi, mәngilik әuender. Al olardyng ózde­ri – naghyz әnshi­ler. Estradada jýrgen kóp әnshiler bir kýndik kóbelekter ghoy.

– Birer jyl ózge elde boldy­nyz. Qazanda qaynap jatqandaghy sezinu bólek, elimizge syrttay qaraghanda ne bayqadynyz?

– Ne nәrsening de baghasy, parqy salystyrghanda bilinetini ras. Eki jylday taghdyrdyng jazuymen Qytaydyng ontýsti­gin­degi Guanjou degen qalada túryp keldim. Talay elde, talay jerde bolyp jýrmiz. Al endi Qytaydyng damuy tanghaldyrmay qoymaydy. Adamdardyng enbekqorlyghy, ókimetting jasap jatqan sharuasy keremet endi. Taqtayday joldar, zәulim ghimarat­tar, saghatyna 350,  400 shaqyrym jyl­dam­dyqpen jýretin poyyzdar, óndelip jayqalghan egin alqaby,  bәrin aityp jet­kizu mýmkin emes. Salystyrmaly aitqanda olar bir mashinamen algha qaray zulap bara jatqan el de, biz at arba minip, aiqay shumen, aspay-saspay elding sonynda kele jatqan el siyaqty kórinemiz. Alyp el ghoy, bәrin ózderi shygharady, bizding elmen salystyru, әriyne, jónsizdeu de sharua.

– Bizde kәsipkerlikti, әsirese auyl sharuashylyghyn damytu ýshin ne kerek dep oilaysyz?

– «Eger bireuding qarny ashyp túrghanyn bilsen, sen oghan balyq berme, qarmaq berip, balyq ústaudy ýiret» degen maqal bar. Bizding kәsipkerler, әsirese auyl sharuashylyghymen ainalysatyn kәsipker­ler menedjment, marketing, biznesti úiymdastyru, zaman talabyna say jýrgizu jayyn jaqsy mengere almaghanbyz. Biz әli kýnge shetelding etinen shújyq jasaymyz, shetelding sýt ónimderin, kókónisterin satyp alamyz. Qazaqtyng bәri jalqau, qolynan is kelmeydi dep aita almaymyz. Degenmen biz etti, sýtti, kókónisti damyghan elderdey óndire almay otyrmyz. Amerikada 5% auyl sharuashylyghynda júmys isteytin adamdar qalghan halyqty auylsharuashylyq ónimderimen qamtamasyz etip otyr. Al bizde 50% halyq auylda túrady, al biz ónimderdi әli kýnge shetten tasimyz. Sondyqtan bizding auyl sharuashylyghymen ainalysatyn mamandardy, kәsipkerlerdi shetelderge aparyp tәjiriybe jinatu ke­rek, shetelderden myqty mamandar әkelip kәsipkerlerdi ýiretu kerek. Sonda ghana biz solarmen birdey ónim óndirip, taytalasa alamyz.

– Bizding ósip kele jatqan jas úrpaq kimdi ýlgi tútuy kerek dep oilaysyz?

– Endi ol әrkimning oi-órisine baylanys­ty. Árkim óz biyiginde armandaydy. Úyada ne kórgenin kim biledi. Men últymyzdyng sapa­ly últ boluy ýshin әr balamyzdyng bilimdi bolghanyn qalaymyn. «Tәrbiyesiz berilgen bilim qauipti» bolmaghy taghy bel­gili. Sondyqtan olar tәrbiyeli, elin sat­paytyn erjýrek, jerin qorghaytyn batyr bolsa. HHI ghasyrda adam besaspap boluy kerek. Ár saladan habardar boluy shart. Búl sózimdi әrnәrsening basyn bir shalsyn degeni nesi dep týsinbeulerinizdi súraymyn. Ózi bilimdi, ózi tәrbiyeli, ózi otanshyl, memleketshil bolsa qanday keremet. Men sonday úrpaqtyng ósip kele jatqanyna senemin. Qazirgi jastardyng kózi ashyq, kókiregi oyau. Biraq bәri keremet dep te aita almaymyn. Keri tәrbiyening jeteginde ketip jatqandar da joq emes. Qoryta aitqanda, jaman el bolmaspyz dep oilaymyn. Árqaysymyz qazaq ýshin bir nәrse jasay alsaq, jaman bolmaspyz. Tәrbiyening aldy osy bolsyn. Bireuge elik­tep, bireudi ýlgi tútu әrkimning óz sharuasy. Biraq bәrimiz Abaydy oqugha mindet­timiz.

Bes paryzdy oryndau ózing ýshin kerek. Al Allagha degen qúlshylyqtyng ýlkeni qayyrym men meyirim dep bilemin. Allanyng jaratqan bir pendesine kómek qolyn sozu, ony múqtajdyqtan shygharu, auzyna su tamyzu da – sauapty is. Keybir adamdardyn  qolynan osynday kishigirim kómek jasau da kelmey túrghany jasyryn emes. Qazaqtyng әr balasy bir-birimizge bәsekeles retinde qaramay, kerisinshe dos, bauyr bola bilsek dep armandaymyn. Bir-birimizdi qoldau arqyly biz últymyzdyng sapasyn arttyramyz. Aram sudan alystap, ózimizding últtyq susynymyzdy, qymyzymyz ben shúbatymyzdy ghana isheyik. Sol arqyly toqsanda toqalyna úl taptyrarlyq qauqary bar, densaulyghy myqty últ retinde maqtana alamyz.  Bizding basty maqsatymyz jeke adam retinde bang emes, últ retinde kóbeng. Ol ýshin әr qazaqtyng deni sau boluy kerek. Osy jolda enbek etsek, tapqan nanymyz adalynan bolar.

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