Ótken ghasyrdyng 40-jyldarynyng ishinde Qytay shekarasyn búzyp ótip, Ýndistan, ary qaray Týrkiyagha barghan Qaliybek Hәkim, onyng úly Hasan Oraltay degen túlghalardy biraz júrtshylyq tanidy dep oilaymyn. Sol Qaliybek Hәkimning inisi Iliyas Rayymbekúlynyng úly kәsipker Ábilbashar Iliyasúlymen súhbattasqan edik.

– Ábilbashar agha, qazaq eline kelgeninizge qansha jyl boldy? Bizding bala kýnimizde Ábilhayyr Tóleuhanúly agha ekeulerinizding Qazaqstangha oqugha ketti degen sóz Erentaudaghy el-júrtqa taralyp, anyz bolyp aitylghany әli esimde. "Qasekeng (Hasan Oraltay) ózi shaqyryp alyp ketipti" desti. Ángimeni osydan bastasanyz.

– Raqmet, Jenis bauyrym, biyl bizding qazaq eline kelgenimizge de 30 jylgha juyqtapty. 1992 jyly qarasha aiynyng ortasy Erenqabyrgha bókteri Qyzyl ózen ónirine Hasan Oraltay aghamyz Shynjannyng sol kezdegi basshysynyng shaqyrumen saparlay barghan edi, Hasan agha sol barysynda ózining Almatyda bir halyqaralyq jinalysqa qatysqanyn aita kelip: “Qazaq eli derbes memleket boldy, mine, keudemde kók tuym, men qazaq elining astanasy Almatydan kele jatyrmyn” dep jinalghan tuystargha aitqany әli esimde. Hasan agha sol saparynda tuystargha Qazaqstangha kóshetinderin eskerte kelip, al myna “eki jigitti Qazaqstangha aparyp oqytam sonda qonystanyp tuystardy tartasyndar” degen oiyn aitty. Sonymen aragha ýsh jyl salyp biz Ábilhayyr ekeuimiz 1995 jyly shilde aiynda Qazaqstannyng sol kezdegi astanasy Almatygha kelgen edik.

– Qazaqstangha kelip qanday oqu ornyna týstinizder?

– Biz Almatygha 1995 jyly shilde aiynda kelgenimizge baylanysty oqu mausymy bastalghansha kýte túruymyz kerek boldy. Ol kezde Dýniyejýzi qazaqtar qauymdastyghynyng jaqsy júmys istep túrghan shaghy, shet elden kelgen qazaqtardyng qolyna beriletin "qazaq" kuәligi Qazaqstan azamaty kuәligimen teng qúqyly edi. Ol kezde Dýniyejýzi qazaq qauymdastyghynyng yqpaly zor boldy, shetel qazaqtarynyng oqugha kelgen jastaryna grant pen oqugha týsuine kómek berip otyrdy. Bizdi sol kezdegi qauymdastyqtyng basshysy Qaldarbek Naymanbaev qabyldap, qay oqu ornyna týskimiz kelse, soghan joldama beretinin aitty. Biz Týrkistandaghy Qoja Ahmet Yassauy atyndaghy halyqaralyq qazaq-týrik uniyversiytetin tandadyq.

– Bizding Erenghabyrghadaghy el bayaghydaghy kóshken elden qalghan el ghoy. Men es bilgende, kóp bolmasa da Qaliybek Hәkimning kóshi jayly ýlkenderding әngimesinen estip qalatynmyn. Qaliybek Hәkimmen sizding әkeniz Iliyas Rayymbekúly aghayyndy kisiler. Hasan Oraltaydyng "Elim-aylap ótken ómir" kitabyn oqyghandar bolsa biledi, aghayyndy eki kisining barys- kelisin, sol kezdegi el jayyn, ótken ghasyrgha tәn sayasy uaqighalardy tәpishtep, qaldyrmay qadaghalap jazghan. Sizder men bizder qúdandaly elmiz, sondyqtan da sonau bir jyldardaghy hikayattardan habardar bolatynymyz zandy. 1988 jyly Hasan Oraltay "Tәnirtau" fermasyna kelgende alghash kórgen edim, jiyeni Baqanay aghamyzdyng ýiinde, topyrlaghan qalyng adamnan ishke kire almasaq ta, Qasekenning kósh jayynda aitqan әngimesin shet jaghalap estigenmin. Keyin "Elim-aylap ótken ómir" kitabynan ol kezdegi sapar jayynda oqyp, qanyqtyq. Sol kezden-aq Qasekeng Qytaydaghy tuysqandaryna, sizderge baghyt-baghdar siltese kerek.

– IYә, bizding tuystardyng qazaq eline erterek qonys audaruyna Hasan aghamyzdyng tikeley yqpaly boldy. Ózing de aityp otyrghanynday mening әkem Iliyas Rayymbekúly Qaliybek Rayymbekúlynyng inisi boluyna baylanysty qytay kommunisteri jaghynan óte auyr soqqygha úshyrap, bar mýlki kәmpeskelenip, auyr azaptar kórgeni belgili. 1966-1976 jyldar arasyndaghy on jyldyq mәdeny tónkerisinde mening әkem Iliyas Rayymbekúly "bandynyn" inisi halyq jauy retinde әr kýni kýreske alynyp, auyr soqqy zardabynyng kesirinen 1971 jyly 61 jasynda ómirden ótti. Al qalghan agha-әpke, tuys-tughandarymnyng kórmegen qorlyghy qalmaghynyn kýni býginge deyin eske alyp otyrady. Osy jaghdaylar jóninde Hasan Oraltaydyng "Elim-aylap ótken ómir" esteliginde 1984-1988 jyldardaghy "Tughan ólkem Shyghys Týrkistangha saparlarym" degen bólimde toqtalyp ótken.

– Tóleuhan, Qanen әkelerimizding 2000 jyldardaghy Qytaydyng beybit kezinde, mamyrajay tirlikterin tastap, bәrinen baz keship, óz úrpaqtaryn qazaq eline qonystandyruynyng dúrys sheshim bolghanyn qazir uaqyt dәleldep otyr. Bizder búl kýnde jana ortagha, tyng tirshilikke ýilesip, ósip-ónip, ornyghyp qaldyq. Búl - birinshi Allanyn, ekinshi - Tәuelsizdikting arqasy. Kezindegi Alash arystarynyng armany oryndalyp, HH ghasyrdyng basynda tәuelsiz memleket bolyp ketkenimizde  Qaliybek, Hamza kóshi Europagha bet almay, qazaq eline qaray búrylar ma edi, qayter edi?

– Ótken ghasyrdyng basy 30-40 jyldar qazaq ýshin auyr jyldar boldy. Qazaq elindegi qazaqtardy qoldan jasalghan asharshylyq pen stalindik qughyn-sýrgin bostyrghanyn tarihtan oqydyq. Al Shyghys Týrkistandaghy qazaqtar gomindan-gunsandang (kommunist) qytaydan kórmegendi kórdi... Mening agham Tóleuqan Iliyasúly, sening әkeng yaghny mening naghashym Qanen Sәbiytúly aghalarmyz tuyp ósken Tyanshani tauy, Erenqabyrgha bókteri ol kisilerding kindik qany tamghan tughan jeri emes pe? Sol jerdi úrpaq bolashaghy ýshin qiyp tastap ketip otyr ghoy... Ol jerde tarihtyng izi jatyr, atalarymyzdyng esimimen atalatyn "Sәbit sayy", "Qaliybektyng dóng jaylauy" agha buyn emes, bizding de ózegimizdi órteydi, oiymyzdan esh ketpeydi. Tәuelsiz qazaq eline qonys audaru ýshin bir úrpaq ózin qúrbandyqqa shaldy dep aita alamyn. Áriyne ótken ghasyr basynda Alash kósemderining armany oryndalyp, qazaq eli tәuelsizdik alghanda, azattyq ansaghan Qaliybektyng kóshi Gimalay aspas edi ghoy.

– Hasan Oraltaydyng "Elim-aylap ótken ómir" kitabyn oqysanyz, erkindiginen aiyrylyp, búghauda bolghysy kelmegen qazaq halqynyng bir bóligining Taklamakan shólin kesip ótip, Gimalay asyp, Ýndistangha,  qandy qyrghyn soghyspen Týrkiyagha barghany, odan Qasekenning "Azattyq" radiosynda istegen qaysar ómir joly bayandalady. Qazaq balasy qayda jýrsem de, últqa qyzmet etpey qoymaymyn degen ýlgi sol kisilerde me deymin?

– Hasan Oraltay aghamyzdyng “Elim-aylap ótken ómir” esteligining alghashqy basylymy 1999 jyly Stambulda basyldy. Kitaptyng kirispesinde “Shyghys Týrkistan qazaqtarynyng 1930 jyldan bergi eldegi jәne shettegi qazaqtardyng últ-azattyq kýresterinen kórinister, sonday-aq Taklamakan shólinde, Gimalay tauynda jәne Týrkiya men Germaniyada arpalyspen ótken jyldar” dep atap ótkendey balalyq shaghynan azattyq, erkindikke úmtylghan qazaq halqynyng ayanyshty taghdyryn, naqty óz kózimen kórgenderin eske ala otyryp, “Tughan elim Shyghys Týrkistannyng Erenqabyrgha tauy bókterindegi Manas-Sauan audandaryna qarasty Qyzyl ózen men Úlujan jaylauy jәne Qorqys pen Manas ózenining eki jaghyndaghy qalyng el ishinde, kezinde talay auyr kýnderde taghdyrlas bolghandardy, sol top ishinen ekshele kele, Taklamakan shólinen birge ótip, Gimalay tauynan birge asyp, Ýndistan men Irak jәne Siriyany basyp, Týrkiyagha jetkenderding óli-tirisin qúrmetpen eske alamyn” dey kele, “Qaliybek Hәkim Rayymbekúly әkesining hatyn alyp 1950 jyly 17 jasynda Ospan batyrgha baryp kezdesuin bayandaydy. Sol kezdesude “Ospan batyr Islamúly men biyl 51 jastamyn” degenine oray esteliginde “dýniyege kelgenine biyl 100 jyl tolghan marqúm Ospan batyr Islamúlynyng aruaghy aldynda qúrmetpen bas iyemin” deydi. Búl jerde Hasan Oraltaydy taghdyr jasynan últ-azattyq kýreskerlik jolgha salghanyn kóruge bolady. Azattyq radiosynda 28 jyl qyzmet etip, 1995 jyly zeynetkerlikke shyqqansha últ ýshin qyzmet etuding qúndylyghynyng ýlgisin kórsetti. Hasan Oraltay aghamyz “Biz shet eldegi Mústafa Shoqaydyng izbasarlarymyz” dep otyrushy edi. 2005 jyly Hasan Oraltay aghamyzdyng 28 jyl Azattyq radiosynda istegende jazghan maqalalary, 1986 jylghy Jeltoqsan shyndyqtary, orys otarlau sayasatyn әshkere etken radio habarlary men kóptegen qúndy derekterin qamtyghan 450 tom jeke múraghatyn akademik Rymghaly Núrghaly arqyly Astanadaghy akademiyalyq kitaphanagha tapsyryldy.

– Bәrimizge belgili Qaliybek Hәkim da, Hasan Oraltay da últyna, tiline, dinine, imanyna adal boldy. (Alla baqiyn jayly etsin! )  Qasekeng qazaq eline nege kóship kelmedi  jәne keyingi úrpaqtary jayly birer sóz.

– Dúrys aitasyn, Hasan Oraltay jәne Qaliybek Hәkim әkeli-balaly eki túlgha últyna, dinine, diline adal boldy. Qazaqtyng eshkimge tәueldi bolmay jeke el boluyn armandap sol jolda kýrespen ótkenin Hasan aghamyzdyng “Elim-aylap ótken ómir” esteligin oqyghan kózi qaraqty oqyrman týsineri dausyz. Mәselen, Qaliybek Hәkim atamyzdyng 1946 jyly Sauan audany әkimi bolyp túrghanda Sauan audany Qyzyl ózen ónirinde Shyghys Týrkistan Respublikasynyng bir jyldyghyn atap ótuin jәne ol toygha Tarbaghatay aimaqtyq basshylarynyng jәne orys konsulining kelui tarihy mәni zor! Sol jyly tughan balalargha Týrkistan atynyng qoyyluyn tarihtan eshkim óshire almasy anyq. Hasan Oraltay aghamyzdyng eki úl, ýsh qyzy boldy, eki qyzy ómirden ótti, ýlken qyzy Azattyq radiosynda ózimen birge júmys istedi, eki úly Germaniyada túrady. Sonda tuyp ósken balalary óz qalauymen ómir sýrip jatyr. Al Hasan aghamyzdyng elge kóship kelmeuining sebebin bilging kelse, 2007 jyly Qazaqstan Últtyq arnasynyng “Qoltanba” baghdarlamasyndaghy súhbatyn qarasanyzdar bolady nemese “Hasan Oraltay 90 jyl” youtube platformasynan kóruge bolady.

– Qaliybek Hәkimning 100 jyldyghyn Qasekeng ózi úiymdastyryp ótkizgeninen habardarmyz. Biylghy óziniz bas bolyp tuys-tughandarymen úiymdastyrghan Hasan Oraltay aghamyzdyng 90 jyldyghy turaly aita ketseniz.

– 2008 jyly Qaliybek Hәkim Rayymbekúlynyng tughanyna 100 jyldyghyn qazaq elinde atap ótu – bir kezderde “Qaliybek bandy”, úrpaqtaryn “Qaliybektyng qaldyghy” dep atalyp kelgen bizding әulet ýshin tarihy jyl boldy. Basta Qaliybek atamyzdyng 100 jyldyghyn atap ótudi kótergenimizde Hasan aghamyz sene qoymady. Óitkeni “1999 jyly Ospan batyr Islamúlynyng 100 jyldyghyn atap ótu turaly úsynys jasaghan Hasan aghamyz edi. Dýniyejýzi qazaqtar qauymdastyghynyng basshysyna jazghan úsynys haty ayaqsyz qalyp, Ospan batyrdyng 100 jyldyghy atalmay qalghanyna qatty renjigen edi. Qaliybek Hәkimning 100 jyldyghy da solay toqtatyp tastar ma eken degen kýdikpen boldy. Biraq qazaqqa tendik súrap eki kórshimiz orys pen qytaygha bas iymegen Qaliybek atamyzdyng 100 jyldyghyn Almatyda toylauymyz biz ýshin ýlken múghjiza edi. Qaliybek Hәkimning tughanyna 100 jyldyq mereytoyyn respublika dengeyinde ótuine jәne halyqaralyq ghylymiy-teoriyalyq konferensiyany joghary dengeyde ótkizuge múryndyq bolghan sol kezdegi Mәdeniyet jәne aqparat ministiri Múhtar Qúl-Múhammed boldy. Mereytoyda Qaliybek Hәkimning kózin kórgen, búl kýnde ómirden ótip ketken marqúm zamandastary, ghalymdar, qogham qayratkerleri, lauazymdy qyzmet atqarghan túlghalardyng konferensiyada bayandama jasap, shetel qazaqtarynyng mәrtebesin ósirdi. "Qaliybek Hәkim turaly estelikter" atty kitap basylyp shyqty.

Al, biyl 2023 jyldyng 4-mamyrynda Almaty qalasynda Hasan Oraltay Qaliybekúlynyng tughanyna 90 jyl toluyna oray Sh.Uәlihanov atyndaghy Tarih jәne etnologiya institutynda “Hasan Oraltay jәne el tәuelsizdigi ýshin qyzmet etuding qúndylyghy” atty halyqaralyq ghylymiy-praktikalyq konferensiya bolyp ótti. Konferensiyany Sh.Uәlihanov atyndaghy Tarih jәne etnologiya institutynyng diyrektory Z.E.Qabyldinov ózi ashyp, jýrgizip otyrdy. QR búrynghy aqparat ministri Darhan Qydyrәlining qúttyqtau haty oqyldy jәne ghalymdar, tarihshylar, jazushylar, qogham qayratkerleri bayandama jasaldy. Hasan Oraltaydyng 28 jyl Azattyq radiosynda Tәuelsizdikke jetu jolyndaghy enbekteri joghary baghalandy. Azattyq radiosynda Hasan aghamyzben birge júmys istegen ardager jurnalister Hasan Oraltay turaly estelikter aitty. Institut qyzmetkerlerine Hasan Oraltay atyndaghy stiypendiya berildi. “Hasan Oraltay jәne el tәuelsizdigi ýshin qyzmet etuding qúndylyghy” atty konferensiya materialdary jәne Astanadaghy akademiyalyq kitaphanadaghy Hasan Oraltaydyng jeke qorynan dayyndalghan “Azattyq radiosynan sóilep túrmyz” atty eki kitaptyng túsaukeseri boldy. Konferensiya sonynda Hasan Oraltaydyng ruhyna baghyshtalyp qúran oqytylyp, as berildi. Almaty qalasy, Ójet yqsham audanynan Hasan Oraltaygha berilgen kóshening ashylu rәsimi boldy. Astanadan mereytoylyq shara ayasynda kelgen Q.Quanyshbaev atyndaghy teatrdyng Hasan Oraltay men Halifa Altaydyng esteligi jelisimen dayyndalghan “Altaydan aughan el” atty Gimalay asqan kósh turaly teatr qoyylymy zaldaghy kórermenge erekshe әser etip, zor yqylasqa bólendi. Osy tústa aitarym, Hasan Oraltay aghamyzdyng 90 jyldyq mereytoylyq is-sharasyna atsalysyp, kómektesken barsha qauymgha alghysym sheksiz! Qazaq elining tәuelsizdigi bayandy bolsyn! Kók tuymyz mәngilik jelbirey bersin!

– Ábilbashar agha, qazir nemen ainalysyp jýrsiz? Bolashaqqa qanday josparynyz bar?

– Jenis bauyrym, jogharyda aityp ótkenimdey, mening atameken Qazaq eline kelip qonystanghanyma da 30 jylgha juyqtapty. Qazirgi jaghdayymyz Allagha shýkir jaqsy. 1995-2000 jyldar aralyghynda Týrkistandaghy Qoja Ahmet Yassauy atyndaghy halyqaralyq qazaq-týrik uniyversiyteti ekonomika fakulitetining halyqaralyq qatynastar mamandyghy boyynsha bilim alyp shyqtym. 2000 jyldan beri Almaty ónirinde jeke kәsipkerlikpen ainalysudamyn. Bolashaqqa jospar kóp qoy... Alla ghúmyr berse, qazaq elining ekonomikasynyng damuyna óz ýlesimdi qosugha júmys isteudemin. Kәsibimizding bir salasy jylyjay sharuashylyghyn damytyp auyl sharuashylyq ónimderin óndirip kórshilerge tәueldilikten arylsaq degen niyetim bar!

– Oygha alghanynyz oryndalsyn, isinizge Alla bereke bersin! Súhbatynyzgha raqmet!

Súhbattasqan Jenis Qanen

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