Aleksandr Iskandaryanmen  (Erevandaghy Kavkaz BAQ institutynyng diyrektory, sayasattanushy) súhbat.

Aleksandr Iskandaryanmen  (Erevandaghy Kavkaz BAQ institutynyng diyrektory, sayasattanushy) súhbat.

– Kenes odaghynan bólinip shyqqan elderdi sayasy jýiesine qaray jiktep berinizshi. Kim alda, kim kósh sonynda keledi?
– Búrynghy Kenes odaghy elderin ýsh topqa bólip qarastyrghan bolar edim. Birinshi top – demokratiyalyq janghyru baghytynda ýlken jetistikterge jetken, biylik әdil týrde auysyp otyratyn, demokratiyalyq qúndylyqtardy baghalaytyn elder. Búl qatargha Litva men Moldovany ghana jatqyzamyz.
Búl topqa qarama-qarsy, demokratiyalyq damu túrghysynan eng artta qalghan elder retinde Ózbekstan men Qazaqstandy aitar edim. Múnda biylik mýlde auysqan joq, demokratiyalyq mehanizmder mýlde iske qosylghan joq. Al qalghan elderding barlyghyn orta topqa jatqyzamyz. Shartty týrde birinshi topty Europa, al ekinshisin – Afrika dep atasaq, ortasyndaghy elderdi Latyn Amerikasyna teneuge bolady. Ortanghy top elderinde qanday da bir ózgerister jasaugha, jol tabugha bolady.
Al Kavkaz elderining ishinde Armeniyada jaghday basqalargha qaraghanda kóshilgeri. Múnda bәri keremet dey almaymyn, qiyndyqtar bolyp túrady, degenmen salystyrmaly týrde bizde jaghday jaqsy. Tek Armeniyada ghana biylik tónkerissiz, dinastiyalyq jolmen múragha qaldyrmastan auysty. Al Gruziyada biylik tek tónkeris arqyly ekinshi qolgha ótip otyrsa, Ázirbayjanda aldymen tónkeris, sosyn dinastiyalyq múragerlik ornady.
– Sonda sizdinshe, Qazaqstan men Ózbekstan sayasy túrghydan eng qiyn jaghdayda ma?
– Mynau – jaqsy, mynau – jaman dep aitugha qaqym joq. Men tek búrynghy KSRO elderin demokratiyalyq proseduralardyng qoldanylu dengeyine qaray baghaladym. Eldi tek demokratiyalyq damu dengeyine qarap baghalaugha bolmaydy. Demokratiyalyq basqaru ýlgisi әlemdegi barlyq elderding talabyna say kele me, joq pa, ony bilmeymin. Mәselen, «Birikken Arab Ámirlikteri jaqsy ma, әlde Gvatemala jaqsy ma?»  dep súrasan, Arab Ámirlikterining әlem ekonomikasyndaghy rólin eskere otyryp, sol eldi tandaghan bolar edim. Degenmen, demokratiyalyq damu dengeyi jaghynan Gvatemala әldeqayda alda.
Aytalyq, siz velosiypedti jaqsy tebesiz. Men sizdi tek sol qabiletinizge qarap baghalamaymyn ghoy. Demokratiyalyq kórsetkishter – belgili bir elge bagha beruding bir qyry ghana. 
–  2010 jyly Qazaqstan Europadaghy Qauipsizdik jәne Yntymaqtastyq Úiymyna tóraghalyq etpek. Bizding el basshylyghy múnday jauapty mindetti atqarugha әzir me?
– EQYÚ-gha tóraghalyq etu – qúrmetti qyzmet emes, búl elding artyqshylyghy. Búghan aldymen qol jetkizu kerek. EQYÚ-ny basqaru ýshin memleketting eki artyqshylyghy boluy kerek. Birinshiden, ol elding halyqaralyq sayasattaghy manyzdylyghy. Qazaqstan iri el ekeni, onyng qazba baylyqtargha bay ekeni, onyng songhy 10-15 jyldyng ishinde eleuli ekonomikalyq damugha qol jetkizgeni belgili, sondyqtan, Qazaqstannyng manyzy da erekshe. Ekinshiden, memleketti basqaryp otyrghan túlghalardyng halyqaralyq qauipsizdik úiymynda jetekshi ról oinaugha degen erik-jigeri. Qazaqstan basshylyghy әu bastan osy oryndy alugha úmtyldy, sol jolda bar kýsh-jigerin salyp júmys istedi, aqyrynda maqsatyna jetti.
– EQYÚ-nyng baqylaushylar missiyasy Qazaqstanda ótken saylaulardy demokratiya talaptaryna say emes dep tapty. Eldegi oppozisiya «Ádil saylau ótkize almaghan eldi tóraghalyqqa otyrghyzsa, EQYÚ-nyng basty prinsipterining biri – әdil saylau ótkizu sharty әdirem qalady» dep otyr...
–  EQYÚ-gha mýshe elderding kópshiligi onyng talaptaryn saqtay bermeydi. Keyde tipti Batys Europa elderining ózderi onyng talaptaryna qayshy әreketterge baryp jatady. Búl úiymnyng keybir sharttaryn oryndau tipti mýmkin emes.
Qazaqstangha tóraghalyq oryndy alyp beru lobbiyining qanday qarqynmen jýzege asyrylghanyna ózim kuәger boldym. Búl prosedura barysynda demokratiyalyq standarttar sóz boldy, әriyne, degenmen múnda sayasy yqpal etu mehanizmderi ekpindi boldy. Múnda sayasy sauda, ótinish aitu, aragha deldal salu siyaqty tәsilder kóp qoldanyldy. Búl – halyqaralyq sayasattaghy qalypty nәrse, dauly sheshimderding barlyghy osy retpen qabyldanady.

Ontýstik Osetiya jәne Tauly Qarabaq turaly

–    TMD elderining ishinde alghashqylardyng biri bolyp Armeniya Ontýstik Osetiya men Abhaziyanyng tәuelsizdigin moyyndaydy degen boljam bar. Búghan negiz bar ma?
–    Búl aimaqtardyng tәuelsizdigin moyyndaudyng әzirge qajeti joq. TMD elderi ýshin qazir eng bastysy – Reseyding jaghyna da, Gruziyanyng jaghyna da birjola auyp ketpeu. Múny Qazaqstan da, Ázirbayjan da, Armeniya da, barlyghy týsinip otyr. Ázirge olargha eshkim tize batyra qoyghan joq.
– Degenmen de, Armeniyanyng olardy moyyndaugha subektivti sebebi bar ghoy? Olardy moyyndasa, Tauly Qarabaqtyng da tәuelsizdikke joly ashylmay ma?
–    Búl sebepting ózi bizdi kerisinshe qiyn jaghdaygha qaldyryp otyr. Qarabaqty tәuelsiz dep moyyndamay túryp basqalardy moyyndau ynghaysyz. Kóptegen naqty mәselelerdi saralay kele armyan sayasy elitasy Qarabaqty da tәuelsiz el dep moyyndaugha әli erte dep sanaydy. Gruziya – bizding kórshimiz, al Resey – strategiyalyq kórshimiz. Bir kórshining yghyna jyghylam dep ekinshi kórshini renjitkennen ne útamyz?
–  Sonda Reseyding eki aimaqty derbes el dep moyyndauy Armeniyagha eshqanday jenildik әpergen joq pa?
–  Armeniya keng tynys ala bastady dep oilaugha negiz bolatyn keybir tendensiyalar bar. Biraq, búl daghdarys әli sheshilmegenin eskeru kerek. Áyteuir, Bakuding Qarabaqty kýshpen qaytarugha endi úzaq uaqyt dәti bar qoymaytyny aidan anyq. Ázirbayjan qazir qatty daghdaryp otyr.
Mening boljamym boyynsha, Ontýstik Osetiya men Abhaziya dauy osy qalpynda sheshilmey túra beredi. Tbilisy endi olardy soghysu arqyly tartyp alu turaly úzaq uaqyt oilamaydy, al búl aimaqtardyng halqy Gruziyanyng qúramyna ótuge búrynnan qarsy, Resey olardy әzirge ózining qúramyna qabylday almaydy.
Ázirbayjannyng «kýshpen jenemiz» degen pighyly endi qúr danghazagha úlasady. Ásirese, saylau qarsanynda múnday jenil әdispen halyqty óz jaghyna tartu onay. Jaghday mýlde ózgermey osy qalypta qalyp qoymaydy, әriyne. Biraq, tayau bolashaqta kóp ózgeris bola qoymasy anyq.

Qyrghiqabaq soghys turaly

– Eki derjavanyng arasynda jol tauyp kelgen TMD elderine endi aiqyn tandau jasaugha tura keledi degen pikirge qalay qaraysyz?
–    «Birpolyarly jýie joyyldy, endi qyrghiqabaq soghys qayta bastalady» degen baybalamnyng bәri negizsiz. «Qyrghiqabaq soghys» – naqty jaghdaydy sipattaytyn, naqty termiyn: ol – eki alyp derjavanyng tiresui degen sóz. Derjavalardyng mýddeleri qaqtyghysqan jerlerde, aitalyq, Angolada, Grenadada, Aughanstanda, Vietnamda eki derjava ózara aiqasyp jatsa, sony qyrghiqabaq soghys deymiz. Qazirgi jaghdayda múnday teng dәrejedegi teketires boluy mýmkin emes. Reseyding qolynda KSRO-daghyday alapat kýsh joq. Resey tek aimaqtyq derjava bolugha úmtylyp otyr. Mәskeu qazir Ontýstik Afrikadaghy, Avstraliyadaghy sharualargha aralaspaydy, «bizben aqyldas» demeydi. Olar tek ózining manayyndaghy jaghdaydy qadaghalaghysy keledi.
AQSh-ta saylau ótedi, al Gruziyada preziydent kim bolatyny jarty jyl ishinde anyqtalady, Ontýstik Osetiyada bitimgershilik kýshterining formaty qalyptasady, TMD elderining ústanymdary birshama aiqyndalady, sóitip ómir jalghasa beredi. Jer sharynda әlemning keybir elderi moyyndap, keybiri moyyndamaghan «jarty» memleketter kóp. Mәselen, Tayvandy 30-gha tarta el moyyndaghan, Soltýstik Kiprdi tek Týrkiya tanyghan, tipti Aughanstandaghy tәlipter ýkimetin 4 el moyyndaghan. Búl tizimge endi Ontýstik Osetiya men Abhaziya qosylady. búl bizding aimaq ýshin manyzdy oqigha bolghanymen, ghalamdyq túrghydan alyp qaraghanda, mayda-shýide nәrselerding biri.

Armeniyadaghy ishki sayasat turaly

– 1 nauryzdaghy qaqtyghystardan keyin bedeli biraz tómendegen Armeniya preziydenti Serj Sarkisyan eldi óz jaghyna tarta aldy ma?
– Joq, halyqty óz jaghyna tarta alghan joq. Preziydentke degen halyqtyng senimi óte tómen. Shynymdy aitsam, preziydentting aiqyn qoldaugha ie bola almauy –  Armeniyadaghy qalypty jaghday. 1992 jyldan beri osylay bolyp keledi. Júrttyng búghan eti ýirenip ketken. Preziydentter osyghan beyimdelip, bedel jinaugha tyrysyp baghady. Biraq, olar kóbine ózderining kýshtiliginen emes, oppozisiyanyng әlsizdiginen aman-sau qalady.
Meninshe, bizding el biylghy aqpanda bastalghan sayasy daghdarystan әli shyqqan joq, el ishinde miting ótkizuge yntaly narazy halyq óte kóp. Europalyq ólshemmen alyp qarar bolsaq, bizding el sayasy yqpal jogharydan tómenge qaray jýretin Germaniyadan góri kóshe demokratiyasy biylikting sheshimine kóbirek әser etetin Fransiyagha úqsaydy.
– Oppozisiya serkesi – Levon Ter-Petrosyan Batystyng adamy eken, ony tónkeris arqyly biylikke әkelu jospary bar eken degen әngime bar. Sol sózding jany bar ma? Ol qanshalyq tәuelsiz sayasatker?
– Ter-Petrosyan óte tәjiriybeli, tisqaqqan, әri óte iri masshtabtaghy sayasatker, onyng artynda eshkim túrghan joq. Ol bireumen sayasy oiyndargha baryp, bireuge emeurin tanytyp jýrui әbden mýmkin. Biraq, songhy sheshimdi óz betimen qabyldap jýrgeni aiqyn. Gruziya preziydenti Mihail Saakashviliydi de júrt  «AQSh-tyng oiynshyghy» dep kóp synap jatyr ghoy. Óz basym búl pikirmen de kelispeymin. Jaghday búdan góri әldeqayda kýrdelirek. 
– Tisqaqqan sayasatker bolsa, ol biyl kýzde biylikti alamyz degendi beker aityp otyrmaghan shyghar?
– Bәlkim, búl – әldekimderge oy tastap otyrghany shyghar. Oppozisiyanyng qanshalyq tabysty bolary olardyng tabandylyghyna jәne birauzdylyghyna baylanysty. Biraq, meninshe Armeniyada juyq arada biylik auysa qoiyy ekitalay.
–    Rahmet.

Múhtar Sengirbay, tәuelsiz jurnalist.