Qazaqstannyng últtyq teatry men kino ónerindegi jaryq júldyzdarynyng biri Qazaqstannyng halyq әrtisi, QR Memlekettik jәne Jastar odaghy syilyqtarynyng laureaty, ónertanu kandidaty Túnghyshbay әl-Tarazy myrzanyng fәlsafalyq oilary men biyikke órlegen ónegeli óneri jayynda,  shyndyq shyrayyn ashyq aitqan syr-súhbatty oqyrman qauymgha úsynghandy jón kórdik.
— Túnghyshbay myrza, sizge qonyrau shalyp habarlasqanymyzda jana qoyylymgha dayyndyq ýstindemin dediniz. Qúpiya bolmasa, ol qanday qoyylym? Sol jayynda aityp berseniz?

Qazaqstannyng últtyq teatry men kino ónerindegi jaryq júldyzdarynyng biri Qazaqstannyng halyq әrtisi, QR Memlekettik jәne Jastar odaghy syilyqtarynyng laureaty, ónertanu kandidaty Túnghyshbay әl-Tarazy myrzanyng fәlsafalyq oilary men biyikke órlegen ónegeli óneri jayynda,  shyndyq shyrayyn ashyq aitqan syr-súhbatty oqyrman qauymgha úsynghandy jón kórdik.
— Túnghyshbay myrza, sizge qonyrau shalyp habarlasqanymyzda jana qoyylymgha dayyndyq ýstindemin dediniz. Qúpiya bolmasa, ol qanday qoyylym? Sol jayynda aityp berseniz?
— Ázirbayjan halqynyng maqtanyshy, klassik suretkeri, sózi de sazy da óziniki Ýzeyir Ghadjybekovtyng ataqty “Arshyn mal alany”. Búl ózi sonau 1913 jyly jazylghan. Búl shygharmagha keyinnen soghys jýrip jatqanda osy attas filim de týsirilgen. 1946 jyly sol filimge qatysqandar týgelimen Stalindik syilyqqa ie bolghan eken. Múnda úly týrkiden taraghan úlystardyng әmbesining janyna jaqyn әn de, kýy de, by de, әdemi әzil de jetip artylady. Búl shygharmanyng birden-bir artyqshylyghy sol - әli kýnge shyrayy keppegen, shyghystyq mәdeniyetting shuaghy ketpegen, týrkilik mentaliytetting mәuesi móldiregen kýii molynan kelgen. Qazaq sahnagerleri búl tuyndygha talay ret at izin salghan bolatyn. Endi mine, әigili «әkemteatrdyn» da sahnasyna sapar shekpek. Basty rólderge deni óz shәkirtterim men ózim degen, menen oqymasa da toqyghan shәkirt “emesterim” oinaydy. Ónerde múrattastyq degen úghym ýlken ról atqarady ghoy. Sodan keyin, ózing bastyq bolmaghan son, ong jaghynnan oryn alatyndar “joghalyp”, qas qabaghyna qarap, qajetinde qasynnan tabyla qalatyndar azayyp, yqtasyn yqylas suyghan tústa “qylkópirden” aman, әri abyroyly alyp shyghatyn sol múrattastar... Búl bergi shyndyghym, al arghy shyndyghymdy aitsam, teatrgha ózge ólshem, taltang talgham kelgen tústa “syrtta” qalyp qoysa da syr bildirmes syrminezdik tanytqan, qanqu sóz ben qyzyl ósekten aulaq bolyp, qyzmetinen qol ýzbey jýrip-aq, byltyr ghana Qúrmanghazy atyndaghy konservatoriyanyng vokal bólimin kýndiz oqyp jýrip bitirgen әkem-teatrdyng talantty aktrisasy Dәriya Jýsipke, elgezek akter Erlan Bilәlovqa, shyrayly ónerpaz Shynar Asqarovagha, dualy artist Dulygha Aqmoldagha, t.b. tól shәkirtterime arnap qoyyp jatyrmyn. Beker obaly ne kerek, alghashynda jýreksindirgenimen, teatr basshylary da, qoyylymnyng kópshilik sahnasyna muzikldyq talabyna say jegilgen teatrdyng keyingi jastary da kónilimnen shyghyp, maghan degen erekshe syilastyqtaryn sezinip, “semirip” jýrgen jayym bar.
— Jogharghy tehnikalyq oqu ornynda dәris alyp jýrgen jas Túnghyshbay ýshin Qúrmanghazy atyndaghy konservatoriyanyng akterlar dayyndaytyn bólimine qabyldanu qiyndyq tudyrmady ma?
— Nege tudyrmasyn? Akter bolu onay dep aitqandardyng auzyn búzar edim... Tehnikalyq oqu oryndary taza eseptin, naqty bilektin, al óner – haqty jýrekting isi. Búryndary әn aityp, óleng jazyp әueyilengenmen, keyinderi syzu men qisapqa qondanyp qalghan qasang kónilding kórigi kópke deyin qiyal kókjiyegine kóndige qoymay, sahna ónerindegi qalauly ómir shyndyghynyng qolayyn taba almay alasúrghany jasyryn emes. Kezi kelgende, bas bildirmes baqyr basym mezi bolghanda tehnikalyq oqu ornyma qaytpaq ta bolgham. Aqyly az alanghasardan, sezimi semgen suyq miskinderden akter shyqpaytyny – dәleldeudi qajet etpeytin aksioma. Kepiyeti men narqyn kemitip, parqyn arzandatyp jýrgen azyn-aulaq aramza “moldalar” da joq emes... Óner auylynyng qadirin ketirip, atqa jenil – telpekbaylandyryp jýrgen de solar... Qaysybirin aitayyn...
— Institut qabyrghasynda oqyp jýrgende ózinizdi akter retinde moyyndatqan qanday kórinis edi?
— Qúdireti kýshti SÓZge jetken kórinisterde! Sóz qadirin sezip, auyzdan shyqqan sózding әdibin jymdastyryp, astaryn aspandatyp aita bilsen, “tas jarady, tas jarmasa – bas jarady”! Akter ónerining nәli әreketten túrsa, әreketting kókesi qazaqtyng osy qarapayymdap qana, qaghyta aityla salynghan maqalynda jatqan joq pa?! Sóz degende men, jaman akterdyng jattap aitatyn jalpyldaq deklamasiyasyn tilge tiyek etip otyrgham joq, onyng saryny men salmaghyn, týri men týsin, әueni men әuezin, tipti iyisin indetip otyrmyn.                         
— Óziniz turaly kitabynyzda: “Akter boludyng azapty kýnderi... Hadisha apaydyng kezekti “shapalaghynan” son” – degen suretiniz bar eken. Sol shapalaqtyng sazayy men azapty kýnderding syryn aityp berseniz.
— Búl óner dep atalatyn әlemge ózim de qorqa-qorqa kelgendikten, alghashynda asau minez tanytyp jalynan ústatpay, janyna jolatpady emes pe?! Akterlyqtyng qadirin asa biyiktetip, ekining biri er-toqym sala almaytyn syrbaz óner ekeninen habardar men, alghashynda kóp jasqanshaqtadym... Qatynqyrap ketken tabighatym da iyilmey, anau-mynau “aldaugha” kónbey qoydy. Mine osynday kezderde akterlyq degenning mamandyq emes, Kisilik ekenin, әmbege mәlim bolghandyqtan da beymәlimdikke bet búrar Qadam ekenin, Túlghalyqqa aparar soqpaghy belgisiz sýrleu ekenin, betegeden biyik, jusannan alasa bolsa da, “soqtyqpaly, soqpaqsyz, mynmen jalghyz alysar” Jol ekenin, Daralyq ekenin eki kýnning birinde úryspay úqtyryp otyratyn Hadisha apamyzdyng sabaghy, shala bop kelgen bizdey, shantrapalargha shapalaq emey nemene?!
— Teatrda somdaghan rólderinizding arasynan janynyzgha erekshe jaqyny qaysysy?
— Ishten shyqqan shúbar jylandardyng qaysysy alys bolar deysiz, bәri de jaqyn. Osy “somdaghan” degen sóz maghan onsha únamaydy. Mening biluimshe, akter somdamaydy, keshedi! Al, súraghynyzdyng soyyna kelsek, әriyne, men bederlegen sahnalyq hәm ekrandyq beynelerimning ishinde Abylay hannyng orny erekshe, delqúly Demesin de degbirimdi alyp jasaghan rólim. Edip patsha, Brut, Syrym, Adam (Gh.S), Jәnibek han; kinoda Tәnirbergen, Qayyrhan, Ábilqayyr, Oraz-Mergen, Shonay. Qoyshy,  sanamalap sabyrynyzdy sarqymay-aq qoyayyn, Allahqa shýkir, búiyrghanyn enserdik, talay asudy alghan synaylymyz, biraz biyikke shyqqangha úqsaymyz, talay taudan asqandaymyz, bederli belderden asyp, en jaylaugha kóshkendeymiz, talay ghúmyr keshkendeymiz...
— Teginizdi nege Ál-Taraziyge auystyrdynyz? Ghúlamalar dәstýrin jalghastyrghynyz keldi me, әlde Tarazdan ekeninizdi bildirginiz keldi me?
— Esepte ekeui de bar. Ghúlamalyqty qiya qoymassyz, bolmasaq ta úqsap baghugha haqymyz bar shyghar... Áuelgide, ózge últtyng teligen atauynan qútyludyng dalbasasynan tughan oy edi, keyinderi eregeske ainalyp ketken shegendi sheshim boldy. Men Jamanqúl degen qazyna shaldyng nemeresimin. Atamnyng óz auzynan estuimde ol kisining azan shaqyryp qoyghan esimi Imanqúl eken, Kenesting nәjisi teris kelgen jandayshaptarynyng noqaylyghynan, jelikpe jengelerining qazaqy ibamen qaynysynyng atyn atamay, “Jamanqúl” dep atap ketken jalghan nyspysynyng tólqújatyna jazatayym jazylyp ketkenin atam Rahymeli jylap otyryp aitatyn. Týzetpek bolghan әreketinen týk shyqpaghan jaryqtyq, aqyry Jamanqúl bop kete barghan eken... Es jiylyp, etek jabylghan tәuelsizdik jyldaryndaghy “ov” pen “ev”, “ichterden” qútylmaqshy bolghan ziyaly men qiyalilardyng úzynsonar aitystarynan da aqyry týk shyqpady ghoy. “Tegi” bolayyq dedi, “әuleti” bolayyq dedi, endi bireuleri atasy men әkesining atyn tonq etkizip qújattaryna jazdyryp alghandardyng qaysysy әke, qaysysy ata, qaysysy ózi ekenin ajyrata almay aqymaq boldyq emes pe? Eski bolsa da estiyar zamandardaghy Múhamed Haydar Dulati, Qarakerey Qabanbay, Qanjyghaly Bógenbay, Ábu Bәkir Kerderi dep ru, taypa attaryn jamylugha sabyry az aqylymyz jetpedi, qyp-qyzyl pәlege qalatyn boldyq. On oilanyp, myng tolghanyp tughan topyraqqa, bir-eki emes, jetpis jeti ata-babamnyng sýiegi jatqan kiyeli topyraqtyng esimine jýginbeske amalym qalmaghan men, osy әl-Taraziydi qúp kórdim. Resmy qújattargha auystyra almasam da, qaghaz ben auyzgha jii alynyp, jadygha jattalyp qaldy әiteuir, Allah aqyrynyng nәsibin bersin!
— Óziniz somdaghan han Abylaydyng ózinde “әttegen-ay” degen armany qalyp ketkeni belgili. Sonday-aq, M.Áuezov atyndaghy Memlekettik drama teatryn basqaryp túrghan kezinizde sonday oryndala almay ketken arman-maqsattarynyz boldy ma?
— Bolghanda qanday! Basshy bolyp túrghanda kerish bop qatyp, kerenitip ketken, Kenes kezinen shemen bop shegendelip qalghan, vyshinskiyding zamanynan beri berishtengen, akterlardyng enbekaqysyn ólshep baghalaytyn eski zandy, kategoriyalar men akterlardyng avtorlyq qúqyqtaryn qorghaytyn tiyisti teris pighyldardy ózgertemin degen izgi niyetim iz-týzsiz qaldy. Óner adamdarynyng ózge tizimde bolghany – el órkeniyettiligining erekshe kórinisi ekenin eshkimge dәleldey almadym... Sol kezdegi enbek ministri Sayat Beysenovten bastap, Korjovagha deyin Qúdaydyng zaryn qylyp qanshama aryz jazdym, “oybay, óldim” deseng qara su tatyratyn aqylyn at, sanasyn tat teppegen birde-bir atqaminer sheneunik taba almay shermende bolyp qala berdim... Qazaq teatrynyng tarihynda alghash ret, ózimiz-óz, kóilegimiz bóz bolyp, dýniyejýzilik eng ýzdik deytin teatrlar festivaline, Shotlandiyanyng Edinburg qalasyna tórt mәrte shaqyrtu ala otyryp, nәieti alty adam ghana oinaytyn qoyylymdy Angliyagha alyp barugha kerekti alpys myng dollar aqsha taba almay, armanda kettim. Osy ótinishimdi Elbasyna jetkizgenimde, ol kisining «oryndalsyn!» dep tabandap túryp tapsyrghanyn Almatynyng sol kezdegi әkimi V.Hrapunov “kýieu bala” da ayaqsyz qaldyrdy... Ol erek shygharma bop shyqqan “Qabyl – Adam ata perzenti” atty qoyylym edi, aqyr ayaghynda onyng aty da, zaty da keyingi irilerding kejegesi keyin tartylyp, óship, úmytylyp ketti... Aqshanyng qat kezinde basshy bolsam da, teatrdy azdyryp-tozdyrmay, jylap-syqtamay, shirenip-shikireymey, eshkimge mindetsinbey eselep etken enbegimizding arqasynda qanshama óresi biyik, sýbesi qalyng qoyylymdar qoydyq, nesheme akterlyq jetistikter boldy, solardyng eng tandaulylaryn bәigege qosyp, baghymyzdy synaghanda, Memlekettik syilyq beru jónindegi komissiya mýshelerining ishinde jýrgen óz aghalarymyzdyng aramdyghynan eki-ýsh mәrte syzylyp qaldyq... Qanshama akter-rejisserlardyng baghy baylanyp, meseli qaytyp obal boldy desenizshi... Ol jýirik qoyylymdardyng ishinde sol “Qabyl...”, sol “Abylay han”, sol “Mәngilik bala beyne”, sol “Tomiriys” atty spektaklider bar edi, amal ne... Ayta keterlik bir jәit, syilyqqa úsynylghandardyng tizimine ózimdi esh qosqan emespin, men ol marapatty sonau toqsan ekinshi jyly “Otyrardyng kýireui” filimi ýshin Elbasynyng óz qolynan alyp qoygham, ol kezde әdilettik bar, meni “Sibirden bir vagon aghash úrlapty” dep joghary jaqqa ósektegen aghalarym da әreke degen kók aurudan aman siyaqty edi...
— Óner ghylymyna den qoigha ne sebep boldy? Zerttelmey jatqan salagha janynyz ashyghany ma, әlde mansap ýshin be?
— Ekeui de emes. Ghylymgha mansap ýshin de emes, jany ashyp emes, janyn salyp, kerek dese, janyn berip aralasu kerek ekenin úghyndym. Birinshi sebep – ainalysyp jýrgen “auylymnyn” qyry men syryn, qúpiyasy men tylsymyn, tereni men biyigin, núry men múnyn týsinu ghana emes, týisinu ýshin, qysqasy ózim ýshin, ol “eldin” de ensesi biyik emen esigin qaqtym. Ekinshisi – ónerde  jýrgen ólermender men azapkerlerding qúnyn kemshin baghalap, keketetinder men múqatatyndardyng jaghyn aiyryp, jaghasyn jyrtu ýshin! Ýshinshi, eng songhy sebebi – akterlardyng da adam sanatyna qosylyp kitap oqyp, tipti sony ózi de jaza da alatynyn Iran-Ghayypqa, t.b. qyrys halyqqa dәleldeu ýshin!
—  Qazirgi qaptap ketken kommersiyalyq filimderge kózqarasynyz qanday?
— Onsha jaman emes. Tek shynayy óner jasau niyetinen taymasa, kәsibiy-bilimdilik biyiginen tabylyp otyrsa, kórkemdik kókjiyegi arzandamay, jogharghy estetikalyq talapqa say sóreden kórine alsa... Múnday qighashtyqtan iz keskender, “Qazaqfilimdegi” qoltyrauyn, әbjylandardyng aranynan qashpaq bolyp jýrgen shygharmashyldyqtan basqa qarau oy qoldarynan kelmeytin jansebil jandar ghoy. Elimiz ben Elbasymyzdyng ózin úyatqa qaldyrghan qola dýnie “Kóshpendilerdin” jyrynan habardar qaysybir aghayyndardyn, әlgi qasqyr qolqalylardyng Qúdaydan da qoryqpaytynynan týnilgen son, tauyp jýrgen amal-aylalary da. Attary shyghyp, el auzyna iligip jýrgenderinen әzirge “Satayfilimnin” ghana shygharmalary kónilge qonyp jýr, basqalaryniki tek aqsha quushylyq, әzirge bosbelbeuleu kórindi maghan...
— Sizding әnshilik qyrynyzdy tanytqan “Óner adamy” atty әnning avtory Qadyrghaly Kóbentaydyn: “Kez kelgen akter әndi әnshiden jaqsy aitady” – degen pikiri bar. Jeke basynyz, siz, soghan kelisesiz be?
— Kelisem! Ánshilerdiki – nәsipti kәsip, al akterlardiki – jýrekten shyqqan kýiik pen úiyq, sher-shemen men mún-zar... Ánshiler kýii kelse de, kelmese de kýnde aita beredi, al akterlar keyde aitady, onda da әn aitpaugha amaly qalmaghandyqtan... Úqqangha ekeuining aiyrmasy jer men kóktey. Ádemi dauys qúlaqqa jaghymdy, al bizdiki jýrekke... Aqan serining “әn – auruym...” deytini osydan ghoy. Abay hakim de aitpaydy ma, “qúlaqtan kirip boydy alar, әndi sýiseng - menshe sýi” dep... Osyndaghy “qúlaqty” ghana oilap, “boygha” mәn bermeytin әnshiler ókpelemes, jýrekpen aitu kóbining ýninen, qala berdi qolynan kelmey jýrgeni de aqiqat.
— Ánderiniz kóbine bard stiylinde oryndalady. Ol sizding dauys tembrinizge say kelgendikten be, әlde janynyzgha jaqyn  bolghandyqtan ba?
— Barym osy bolghandyqtan. Qay stili ekendiginde de, dausymnyng tembrinde de sharuam joq. Janyma jaqyn әndi ghana aitatynym ras, onda da bireuge únau ýshin emes, ózim ýshin. Tegim men tembrim únamaytyndargha jalynbaymyn, men aitqanda teledidarynyng betin, radiosynyng otyn óshirip tastasyn,  “kóshke bergen taylaghyn qaytyp alsyn”, orysyn tyndasyn, oimauytymen múndassyn, kónilim bayaghyday...
— Bala kezinizdegi ezu tartar qyzyq oqighalarynyzben bólisseniz.
— Endi ezu tartpaytyn boldym, óitkeni ol – saghynyshqa, sary uayymgha ainalghan...

Alina Baqtybaeva  
«Qazaqstan Zaman» gazeti (21.05.2009)